Meanwhile, I know there are plenty who are still using Win7 and below, and there's even a nontrivial community writing drivers for newer hardware and such.
People don't like uncertainty. Installing after-market operating systems will always be a hobbyist thing. Not entirely dissimilar to cars: some people will go into the details and even of those not many will customise their vehicle.
Because "the market" is so small, nobody bothers making things that you can buy off the shelf. And when I mean "off the shelf", I literally mean at a physical store you can actually go to and try things.
Having a "developer edition" or a drop down on a website isn't going to move the needle, because you have to know what you're looking for in order for that dropdown to be meaningful.
Once we have a handful of manufacturers actually selling Linux based laptops in stores I think we'll get more adoption, however you can see how strong the stranglehold that these giant companies have on the market when you merely compare AMD to Intel; even now AMD remains a niche CPU in stores despite absolutely trouncing Intel for the last half-decade, and seeing any market penetration in stores took years despite being clearly superior in performance, battery life and temperature - Linux, for many people is not "clearly superior" in such clear cut ways.
It is hardly any different from getting that IoT board, that only works with the snowflake distro that was made available on the release date, and nothing else.
And the conflation of “unsupported” and “ewaste” is also wrong. Tons of people keep using their computers after EOL, including my mom. Why would they notice or care?
Switching your family members to Linux works because they’re your family members. You know how they use computers, their comfort level, their needs. They can call you for help. A repair cafe, helping people they’ll likely never see again? Installing Linux, or heck, things as complex as dual-booting (which they suggest)? You’re kidding! Just leave people alone with their fine, basically-secure computers.
Browsers have steadily dropped old Windows versions faster than the historical trend. I wouldn't rely on this.
[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sus...
ivraatiems•3h ago
The reality is that for the vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics. The problem is not that they're not usable when things are working right. The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire. A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. ChromeOS Flex is a partial solution, as many people are familiar with it, but it is useless on a lot of hardware due to lack of drivers and is not a good fit for more powerful machines.
On the other hand, if you install Windows 11 on a machine that doesn't support it, you get all security updates for the next year, and all the drivers you need are typically present in Windows Update. In situations where there is a need for legacy drivers, they usually work after a simple install. I have installed Windows 11 on systems from 2011 and 2012 and had it work flawlessly, and fast enough for basic use. Windows 11 itself isn't perfect, but moving from 10 to 11 is nowhere near the complexity of moving from 10 to Linux.
Of course, the big issue is that after that year of security updates, one has to manually download the next "feature update" and install it to get another year of updates. This isn't hard to do per se, but it's approaching the kind of complexity that the average person isn't going to navigate smoothly. I don't have a great solution for this yet, though I am thinking about one. For now, I just include disclaimers and documentation about what to do to make things easier. Even so, compared to something like a Linux major version upgrade, this is quite straightforward.
There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go.
garbagepatch•2h ago
yourusername•2h ago
genocidicbunny•2h ago
Also, what sorts of machines are you installing W11 on that are 'unsupported'? My daily driver initially came with W8.1 and for a while, I couldn't update to W10 because there were no W10 wifi drivers available; The manually-installed 8.1 ones were extremely flakey. And this isn't some no-name laptop too, it's a Thinkpad which you'd think would be well supported.
yourusername•2h ago
EvanAnderson•2h ago
I'm on mobile and don't have a reference handy but search-engine this and you'll find instructions.
genocidicbunny•1h ago
EvanAnderson•1h ago
supriyo-biswas•2h ago
creatonez•1h ago
exe34•1h ago
There are two claims here:
1. these problems are harder to solve on Linux
2. these problems happen more often on Linux.
I'd really like to see some actual studies of this, because I suspect they are both bullshit.
ivraatiems•1h ago
1) Speakers are inexplicably swapped between left and right and you have to debug alsa/pulseaudio/pipewire to find out why
2) Bluetooth and WiFi don't work without drivers that require downloading and installing packages manually from different versions of the OS (eg the Ubuntu 22.04 drivers don't work but 21.04 do and that's not documented anywhere, I figured it out by reading logs and googling)
3) some devices or drivers don't work without enabling new kernel modules
4) some devices or drivers don't work without building a driver from source, the official binaries are not usable on a given system
5) sleep doesn't work correctly without manual configuration on command line
6) /etc/default/keyboard must be manually modified with the correct keyboard configuration for the device; the UI can't do it
If you think the above are problems a layperson with no computing (and specifically Linux) expertise can solve, you may not be spending a lot of time around actual laypeople.
exe34•1h ago
okanat•35m ago
With Linux any driver compiled from source needs to be rebuilt at each kernel minor release. Some stuff has DKMS some don't. Some vendors keep up with distracted puppy level of change speed in kernel APIs. Most don't.
With Linux you have to support your family computers ~each month to pull updates. With Windows all updates are automatic and require 0 remote support.
GoblinSlayer•1h ago
pjmlp•1h ago
Exactly because "vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics.", the first time they got into issues instead of doing the "call the son IT support", they went to the nearest PC store and got Windows reinstalled.
I was suddenly surprised during the next parents visit to find Windows again on that computer.
Since then, I rather have the local PC store support them, than me, and then also don't really care about GNU/Linux based systems, only whatever runs OSes from Microsoft, Apple and Google.
It isn't as if I am flying back to Portugal every weekend to do support, or find out how to make GNU/Linux actually fit their computer needs, and software needed by Portuguese goverment, banks and co.
sandworm101•8m ago
(If you have dementia, even a changed wallpaper can be a big deal. Popups with "new feature" or rando security notices are not helpful.)
GoblinSlayer•1h ago
kodarna•1h ago
I've had a great experience putting my computer illiterate mother on Linux Mint. I've never had to help her once with the operating system or programs (she only uses Firefox and an IPTV application) whereas Windows was a mess at times.
salviati•1h ago
I have decades of experience in being "the computer guy" with some friends and family. My reality is different. My reality is that people find Linux easier to use than Windows. In my reality people are not happy to see the UI change radically across versions. With Linux I can always find a DE that is similar to what they used to have (see cynnamon, for example).
> The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire
I have the opposite experience: I had some acquintances go through forum posts and apply the solutions suggested there, all on their own, to my great surprise. Instead, when someone says to me they have a problem with their Windows computer, I answer that they're too complicated: I don't know how to put my hands on them. If I search online it's very hard to wade through the vague suggestions, the "reinstall", "reboot" that never give you any additional knowledge after you've solved the problem. In my reality your sentence applies to Windows, not to Linux.
> A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows.
What are you comparing? "A machine designed for windows" vs what? I believe you meant "windows". New hardware on Linux is way easier than Windows. New printer? You connect it and it just works. Wifi dongle? Same. The way you talk about it sounds like 1999 Linux to me.
> There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go.
My main reason is this: GNU/Linux is built for the user. You as the user are the master. Windows is built to extract value from people using computers. Sometimes they (Microsoft) decide you're not in charge; for instance when you tell the computer to shut down, and the computer replies with "I'm installing updates, don't shut me down". And maybe it's a laptop. And maybe I'm off to take a train, and I'm about to be late.
I even read that windows embeds ads. In the OS. How is this remotely acceptable?
I recently went to an open event where researchers were showing their work to people/kids, and I noticed how they all use windows. That made me sad. I think misinformation is the main thing holding Linux back. I believe you're believing and spreading misinformation in good faith.
pjmlp•1h ago
The same way FOSS projects, and Linux distros happen to do, because they need the money.
https://github.com/standard/standard/issues/1381
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fw...
https://linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-plac...
salviati•39m ago
I'm talking about choices that disrupt user productivity on their computers. Not choices that might annoy users who read each and every line in a 40 lines CLI output.
pjmlp•3m ago
Some people consider being annoyed every couple of 40 lines CLI output disruptive for their work.