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OpenAI and Nvidia announce partnership to deploy 10GW of Nvidia systems

https://openai.com/index/openai-nvidia-systems-partnership/
256•meetpateltech•2h ago•294 comments

A collection of technical things every software developer should know about

https://github.com/mtdvio/every-programmer-should-know
15•redbell•36m ago•4 comments

PlanetScale for Postgres is now GA

https://planetscale.com/blog/planetscale-for-postgres-is-generally-available
193•munns•3h ago•97 comments

Cloudflare is sponsoring Ladybird and Omarchy

https://blog.cloudflare.com/supporting-the-future-of-the-open-web/
430•jgrahamc•5h ago•265 comments

SWE-Bench Pro

https://github.com/scaleapi/SWE-bench_Pro-os
58•tosh•2h ago•12 comments

A board member's perspective of the RubyGems controversy

https://apiguy.substack.com/p/a-board-members-perspective-of-the
52•janpio•2h ago•27 comments

The Beginner's Textbook for Fully Homomorphic Encryption

https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.05136
128•Qision•1d ago•21 comments

Choose Your Own Adventure

https://www.filfre.net/2025/09/choose-your-own-adventure/
8•naves•39m ago•0 comments

A simple way to measure knots has come unraveled

https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-simple-way-to-measure-knots-has-come-unraveled-20250922/
79•baruchel•4h ago•35 comments

Mentra (YC W25) Is Hiring to build smart glasses

1•caydenpiercehax•2h ago

Cap'n Web: a new RPC system for browsers and web servers

https://blog.cloudflare.com/capnweb-javascript-rpc-library/
188•jgrahamc•5h ago•82 comments

Qwen3-Omni: Native Omni AI Model for Text, Image & Video

https://github.com/QwenLM/Qwen3-Omni
11•meetpateltech•1h ago•1 comments

Morgan and Morgan takes Disney to court over 'Steamboat Willie' in ads

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2025/09/17/morgan-morgan-takes-disney-to-court-over-right...
42•wrayjustin•2d ago•25 comments

Easy Forth (2015)

https://skilldrick.github.io/easyforth/
149•pkilgore•7h ago•80 comments

CompileBench: Can AI Compile 22-year-old Code?

https://quesma.com/blog/introducing-compilebench/
101•jakozaur•6h ago•34 comments

What is algebraic about algebraic effects?

https://interjectedfuture.com/what-is-algebraic-about-algebraic-effects/
56•iamwil•4h ago•22 comments

Show HN: Python Audio Transcription: Convert Speech to Text Locally

https://www.pavlinbg.com/posts/python-speech-to-text-guide
4•Pavlinbg•43m ago•0 comments

A New Internet Business Model?

https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-2025-annual-founders-letter/
167•mmaia•3h ago•162 comments

Appleii Air Attack.BAS

https://basic-code.bearblog.dev/applesoft-air-attackbas/
4•ibobev•3d ago•0 comments

Testing is better than Data Structures and Algorithms

https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/202509/testing_is_better_than_dsa.html
20•rsyring•2h ago•6 comments

Beyond the Front Page: A Personal Guide to Hacker News

https://hsu.cy/2025/09/how-to-read-hn/
143•firexcy•9h ago•64 comments

SGI demos from long ago in the browser via WASM

https://github.com/sgi-demos
203•yankcrime•10h ago•53 comments

The Strange Tale of the Hotchkiss

https://www.edrdg.org/~jwb/mondir/hotchkiss.html
17•rwmj•1d ago•2 comments

AI-Generated "Workslop" Is Destroying Productivity

https://hbr.org/2025/09/ai-generated-workslop-is-destroying-productivity
32•McScrooge•54m ago•4 comments

Diffusion Beats Autoregressive in Data-Constrained Settings

https://blog.ml.cmu.edu/2025/09/22/diffusion-beats-autoregressive-in-data-constrained-settings/
4•djoldman•40m ago•1 comments

The American Nations regions across North America

https://colinwoodard.com/new-map-the-american-nations-regions-across-north-america/
61•loughnane•3h ago•77 comments

California issues historic fine over lawyer's ChatGPT fabrications

https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/09/chatgpt-lawyer-fine-ai-regulation/
74•geox•2h ago•39 comments

Human-Oriented Markup Language

https://huml.io/
34•vishnukvmd•3h ago•32 comments

Dear GitHub: no YAML anchors, please

https://blog.yossarian.net/2025/09/22/dear-github-no-yaml-anchors
148•woodruffw•4h ago•117 comments

Anti-*: The Things We Do but Not All the Way

https://blog.jim-nielsen.com/2025/my-antis/
35•gregwolanski•3h ago•13 comments
Open in hackernews

UK Millionaire exodus did not occur, study reveals

https://taxjustice.net/press/millionaire-exodus-did-not-occur-study-reveals/
209•mooreds•3h ago

Comments

josefritzishere•3h ago
Sounds like it's safe to tax the rich.
supportengineer•2h ago
Always has been
fooster•2h ago
The rub here is the definition of rich.
SilverElfin•2h ago
Yep. Rich can mean a lot of things. In Norway the wealth tax starts applying at about $150K USD of assets, which is a very low threshold. The pattern I see across countries is that over time the tax rates keep increasing and the thresholds at which apply keep coming down. And that is because governments are badly mismanaged most of the time and they rely on a tax base Ponzi scheme. When your tax base isn’t growing you have to extract more from the existing one. Rarely is efficiency or waste talked about.
xienze•2h ago
> The pattern I see across countries is that over time the tax rates keep increasing and the thresholds at which apply keep coming down. And that is because governments are badly mismanaged most of the time

Sort of, but it goes back to the overwhelming size of government budgets. In the US for example, even if all of the assets of the wealthiest individuals could be converted 1:1 into cash (it can’t) and the government took 100% of it, congratulations, we’ve fully funded the government for perhaps one year. There’s nowhere to go at that point except to revise the definition of “rich.”

em500•58m ago
Yup, In the Netherlands the de facto wealth tax starts applying at €58k of assets (to be lowered to €51 next year), with exemptions for primary residence, pensions and bank savings.

It started off at 1.2% about 2 decades ago (legislated as a 30% rate on a deemed 4% return), but has increased to 2.1% last year (36% rate on deemed 5.88% return), and in the current government budget proposal is set to increase to 2.8% next year (36% rate on deemed 7.78% return).

bko•3h ago
> The Tax Justice Network’s review – co-published with Patriotic Millionaires UK and Tax Justice UK – of the Henley report finds that the number of millionaires claimed by Henley & Partners to be leaving countries in “exodus” in 2024 represented near-0% of those countries’ millionaire populations.3 For example, the 9500 millionaires widely reported to be leaving the UK in 2024 represented 0.3% of the UK’s 3.06 million millionaires.

From a quick search:

>> Patriotic Millionaires UK is a nonpartisan network of wealthy individuals in the UK who publicly advocate for higher taxes on the rich and progressive economic reform.

>> Tax Justice UK is a non-profit, politically non-aligned campaigning and advocacy organization working to ensure that everyone benefits from a fair and effective tax system. The group focuses on building a movement for progressive tax reform, pushing for policies that tax wealth and excessive corporate profits at higher rates in order to better fund public services and redistribute wealth

I'm sorry but if someone posts a study conducted by NRA on gun violence, most would view it with suspicion. I think we should probably view this study with suspicion as well given the groups that were conducting it.

ratelimitsteve•2h ago
Perhaps rather than focusing on the speaker, you could focus on their arguments and tell us what's actually incorrect?
1234letshaveatw•2h ago
Because that wasn't their intent? Perhaps you should consider that calling out the potential bias of the authors has merit?
bko•2h ago
Sure! Here's a source from Adam Smith institute that shows UK millionaires / billionaires decreased during that time period and high taxes are partly to blame

https://www.adamsmith.org/millionaire-tracker2024

del82•2h ago
It's absolutely true that we should consider the source for this and any other reviews / studies / news articles etc., and be aware of their likely position.

We should also recognize that, for all but the most mainstream possible questions or topics, most of the study is going to come from interest groups-- they're the ones who are interested enough to do the work to look at the data and publish their results!

If we dismiss reviews like this out-of-hand simply because they are created by an interest group, then we'll miss out on a lot of information and opportunity for reasonable discourse.

(Note that I'm not saying the parent comment is advocating this, but it did raise the point in my mind.)

1234letshaveatw•2h ago
Studies largely come from academia, and (in theory) would be/should be independent. Studies coming from authors with a bias or conflict of interest should be flagged, not dismissed, which appeared to be the intent of the parent.
gruez•56m ago
>Studies largely come from academia

Source? I'd imagine for public policy think thanks and government agencies make up a significant chunk as well.

KaiserPro•1h ago
There are two types of study.

A peer reviewed study, with published data and methodology. (it might even be accurate, unless you're a sociologist)

then there is a "study" created by a think tank, PR firm pretending to be a think tank, or a dipshit company pushing something or other.

The latter a good for seeing which rich prick, or group of pricks has the time and money to push a specific agenda. and not much else.

SilverElfin•2h ago
You can pretty much be assured of bias if the word “justice” appears in the name of an organization or project or whatever. It has been co-opted all over, in settings where the word doesn’t really even make sense. After all, the only just and fair outcome would be if everyone paid the same amount.

Speaking of - why don’t government services just charge transparent rates for the services they’re providing like any business? Everyone else figures out how to charge for a product or service. A lot of waste is normalized and hidden in the vague sums thrown at agencies, with no competition to drive prices down since it’s a government service. Taxpayers could get better outcomes by pushing for better governance instead of more unjust redistribution continually.

ghurtado•2h ago
> why don’t government services just charge transparent rates for the services they’re providing like any business?

Donald Trump is already president of the US. You are not going to beat him at the "stupid questions about the government" game, so I would just sit back and let him show you how it's done.

dfxm12•2h ago
The review appears to be cited. If you suspect it, by all means, review it.

Also, the NRA has a long history of suppressing gun violence research in general (through their lobbying efforts of the CDC and NIH, the Dickey Amendment, etc.). This would contribute more to suspicion than anything else.

afavour•2h ago
I’d react the same way as I would to an NRA gun violence study: can we verify the results?

In this instance there are copious footnotes and citations of data backing up the argument. If they’re falsified, yes, we should disregard the study. But they don’t seem to be.

phatfish•2h ago
DYOR guy on the internet tells me something is bullshit. That's settled then.
youngtaff•1h ago
Did you critique the Henley report too?

It was written by one guy in South Africa who didn’t really do any valid research

lordnacho•3h ago
The way I think of it, if you have a business that's easy to just pick up and move to Dubai, you've already done it. It's not as if tax is on the whole some sort of cliff; people have been able to leave the UK for a long time, and there isn't some particular tax that will push out everyone if it's enacted.

So whatever exodus occurs will be on the margin, where a few people throw up their hands and go "oh I've had enough".

At the same time, you have plenty of things tying people down: friends and family, business opportunities, kids in school.

supportengineer•2h ago
The same logic applies to California. I know a wealthy guy who would save a million a year in taxes by moving to Nevada or Washington state, but he just... hasn't. He's been talking about it for years, but no action. Because when it comes right down to it, it's too much disruption/change.
toomuchtodo•2h ago
Massachusetts had an increase in millionaires move there after increasing their taxes. It's all bluster that the wealthy will leave. Where will they go? Talk is cheap.
ghaff•2h ago
In the specific case of Massachusetts, living in New Hampshire (no income tax or sales tax) instead is pretty practical for a lot of people. Doesn't help you that much if you commute to an MA employer but I know a lot of people who did commute in from NH and, these days, a lot of people who became officially remote workers in NH.

Of course, there are lots of other reasons why out-of-staters might choose to move to MA.

toomuchtodo•2h ago
So you close the gap with policy as you find folks attempting to evade it. You'll always have leakage, it's inevitable, but not an excuse to not implement progressive tax policy on the highest levels of income and wealth. Puerto Rico has very favorable income tax treatment, but outside of some crypto bros, hasn't moved the HNW or high income migration needle, for example.
ghaff•2h ago
I'm not sure why you consider living in NH evading anything. There are policies related to actually spending a lot of work time in other states, including MA. NH has established policies that generally work for them--and generally provide fewer services in exchange for lower taxes which seems like a valid choice to me.
toomuchtodo•2h ago
I only consider it evading if claiming residency in a low or no tax jurisdiction while still maintaining business activity or presence in the jurisdiction in scope for the taxes we're discussing. If you live in NH, work in NH, and have no nexus or economic activity derived from MA, carry on.

NY sources taxes to the employer's office location in NY if a worker works remotely under certain circumstances, for example [1]. If geography can be used to shift or avoid tax exposure to income, I see no problem with using the law to prevent that, depending on the target outcome. My global income is subject to US federal taxes, regardless of my residency (although foreign exclusions apply under a reasonable income threshold, ~$120k/year, under the assumption I am paying taxes where I reside outside the US) [2].

[1] https://www.anchin.com/articles/remote-workers-and-the-conve...

[2] https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

ghaff•2h ago
At my former company, remote employees did increasingly have to track significant time in-person at other company locations--but if you're really working remotely.... MA did try to wrest taxes from NH-resident employees when they went remote en masse during COVID but I don't think they succeeded. (The official company HQ wasn't even in MA although they had a large facility and a lot of senior people there.)

I'm not sure how you reasonably allocate state/local taxes other than by physical presence. Any reasonably large company has an economic nexus in many states and even countries.

dfxm12•2h ago
Don't discount the possibility that living in that part of California is great and this guy is just virtue signaling.
latexr•2h ago
> virtue signaling

I wouldn’t call moving to another place to pay less in taxes a virtue.

iwontberude•2h ago
I complain about taxes to make my friends in Texas feel better about the raw deal they’ve got. I don’t mind paying high taxes personally. It’s more than virtue signaling, it’s about giving people something to be proud of.
jansan•2h ago
> it’s about giving people something to be proud of.

Are you talking about the very generous pensions for government officials?

ambicapter•2h ago
Are you doing your friends a favor by pretending that the raw deal they're getting is great?
iwontberude•1h ago
Yes because they can’t move ever
SilverElfin•1h ago
Or maybe it’s just below bad enough to overcome the network effects of living in the Bay Area.
cassepipe•2h ago
Also, if you have millions, does an extra million make a difference ? A even bigger house ? Boat ? You can already have all the space you need, you can eat everywhere and go wherever you want for holidays... Is it worth the hassle ?
bluecalm•2h ago
Well for Norway specifically they have 1.1% wealth tax and humongous 37% capital gain tax (of course it's lower for real estate because Europeans like fighting stock investments).

If you have say 4 million USD and invest in stocks expecting say 7% per year you will pay 103k USD in cap gain tax and then 44k in wealth tax for a grand total of almost 150k/year.

That's enough to fund Switzerland lifestyle let alone life in multiple other countries that levy 0 or close to 0 cap gain tax for long term gains. It's difference between comfortable retirement and having to work.

Maybe it doesn't make much difference if you're very wealthy but for those who just managed to get financial independence it's huge.

ks2048•2h ago
I've often asked myself with regards to the rich, "Don't they have enough money"?

I've come to realize the answer is nearly always NO. They want (and believe they need) more.

supportengineer•1h ago
In this case, the person grew up very poor, so it's hard for them to see that much money being wasted.
SilverElfin•2h ago
He may have found a clever way to structure his tax exposure.
ryandrake•2h ago
If there is anything as inevitable as death and taxes, it's "wealthy people complaining about taxes." Every year, the usual articles make the rounds about how all these wealthy people are moving out of California because they're sad about their taxes, and every year it doesn't significantly happen. I'm starting to think the "moving out of California" meme is just a media re-run that the wealthy get together and fund every year, and then it's back to sipping their wine in their mansions in Beverly Hills and Atherton.
klipt•2h ago
California actually has very low property taxes.

Which according to economists is the wrong way around: it's better to have taxes on land (because it doesn't discourage land existing - land is fixed) than to have taxes on work income (which on the margin, discourages working)

abirch•2h ago
Property taxes usually pay for schools and there can be lines for CA schools.
jerlam•55m ago
Depends on the area. In the wealthy SF Bay Area, the schools are closing due to lack of enrollment. SF is "the most childless major city". Schools are drastically underfunded due to Prop 13 and the state kicks in a lot of money to make up for the difference.
SilverbeardUnix•2h ago
Land value tax would solve most problems in California.
zdragnar•1h ago
I wonder what percentage of people in California would go bankrupt if LVT were passed implemented there.

Anyone, residential or commercial, with a mortgage would simultaneously find a massive amount of their net value erased while stuck with huge monthly payments on top of massively increased tax bills, unable to sell assuming the higher taxes drive down property prices.

klipt•1h ago
You could certainly phase in an implementation over 20-30 years to give the economy time to adjust. Just interpolate the taxes.

In a state with fully implemented LVT, you would expect most people in dense cities to be living in multilevel housing that makes more efficient use of land. Eg if your condo building has 5 floors, you're splitting your land tax 5 ways.

Sprawling single level houses would be a relative luxury.

griffzhowl•32m ago
Isn't it easy to implement a threshold so it's only effective on holdings above a certain value, or exemptions for primary abode or something along these lines?

It's not difficult conceptually to come up with schemes to tax wealth which doesn't unduly harm non-wealthy individuals (however you would define that level for these purposes). It's just that for one reason or another these schemes are not implemented, and one of those reasons is (plausibly) the political influence of wealthy individuals

tick_tock_tick•31m ago
Places like AZ and Florida already solved this issue. If there is hardship the property tax accumulates as a lien on the property to be claimed when the property is sold.
Spooky23•1h ago
LVT is the online forum dream.

Land is worth money because of improvements or detrimental choices. Manhattan and Staten Island have dramatically different valuations because of what’s there.

California needs a sane taxation system that doesn’t allow squatters to pay nothing for property taxes, but harshly punishes new homeowners.

throwmeaway222•1h ago
Very low property tax RATE, but probably the most property tax payments because everything is 1m+ for a shit house.
p_ing•2h ago
The Starbucks CEO lives in California and flies to Washington state every week.

He could move and supposedly save money (no income tax in WA, but there are some Capital Gains taxes).

SilverElfin•1h ago
The reason not to move to WA is the capital gains tax in WA is unpredictable. Someone else had explained that it’s actually against the state’s constitution but was upheld by the one sided state courts. And the legislators adjusted the rates upward once already even though it’s a very new tax. The state budget is in a bad shape and expected to get worse, so it’s likely they’ll keep increasing the tax every year.
jvalencia•2h ago
California refineries are set to shut down and it has huge implications for the state: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/16/business/energy-environme...
gadders•2h ago
There are businesses (such as hedge funds) that seem to have left New York and Chicago and moved to Miami, though?
Spooky23•1h ago
I know a few people in New York like this. At the end of the day, home is home and Nevada is Nevada.

The people who actually act on this stuff are usually not really wealthy, mostly just retirees finding themselves with a windfall of time and cash, who usually don’t math well.

bko•2h ago
Yes it happens on the margin and once you have roots, it's unlikely you'll leave. But these kinds of things happen all at once and it's hard to reverse.

If you look at Detroit which was a manufacturing hub for a long time, it would be difficult to imagine a world in which they were irrelevant. All these people built lives there and there was all this specialization and industry there. And it worked well until it didn't.

Once a place loses its dynamism and people have had enough, it'll be very hard to get them back

jgeada•2h ago
Because that was when the factories & their support infrastructure moved, not when a handful of entitled wealthy moved.

Note also that while the factories moved to China, the wealthy stayed right here in the US, & didn't go where their money was spent.

Different scale, different consequences.

beloch•2h ago
In theory, relatively poor people should be easy to coerce into different behaviours with taxes. In practice, that doesn't appear to be true. e.g. We've seen that carbon taxes on fuel don't really change vehicle purchases or behaviour at the pumps to a large degree unless the taxes are set very high.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that wealthier folk aren't moving to different countries over a tax that is smaller to them, in relative terms, than carbon taxes are to the poor. What is money for, after all, if not to enable you to live the life you want to live? If you need to move to Dubai to avoid taxes, how can you consider yourself wealthy?

seanmcdirmid•2h ago
Tax on businesses is separate from personal wealth and income taxes. You can run IKEA from Switzerland if you want, as long as ikea pays its taxes for each country it operates in. So billionaires can definitely shop for good deals on personal wealth, they can negotiate directly with Swiss Cantons about that.
jdietrich•2h ago
Until April of this year, it was possible for a foreign national to be resident but not domiciled in the UK. Any income they earned in the UK would be subject to UK tax, but income earned abroad would not be. These non-domiciled foreign nationals could "live" in Dubai (or any other country) for tax purposes, but actually live in the UK in every practical sense.

The removal of this non-domiciled status is clearly far more significant than a normal tax increase. The UK was a uniquely attractive destination for the super-rich, because they could enjoy all the amenities of living in London with no real concerns about the tax implications. It is plausible that many of those people will decide to pay UK tax rather than move abroad, but we are talking about an exceptionally highly-mobile group who have already made the decision to move country, many primarily or solely for tax reasons.

whatshisface•2h ago
Isn't the defining characteristic of the wealthiest demographic their ability to pay for things that they want (like living in London) without any concern over the cost of doing it?
earnesti•2h ago
I don't think these people would be superrich if they wouldn't be optimizing their taxes, at least at some level. I would guess taxes are the typically the biggest single expense the really rich people pay.
tristramb•1h ago
I would have thought that being superrich would free you from worrying about 'optimizing your taxes'.
KaiserPro•2h ago
> without any concern over the cost of doing it?

indeed thats why to have accountants and lawyers, the issue here is that non-dom meant that you could avoid paying tax on stuff you earnt outside of the UK. for example if you have a lot of income being generated in the USA, then being a non-dom meant that you could avoid paying tax here in the UK at the same time.

For US citizens its a bit harder, as you're liable for tax on all income, regardless of source. I'm not sure how they get round that, debt financing or something similar I imagine

SilverElfin•1h ago
What’s the problem with that? Why should the UK or any country have a claim to money people are making elsewhere?
KaiserPro•1h ago
I think its an issue of fairness.

I, as a rich techbro, but not an Uber rich techbro, have to pay ~46% of my income in tax. (even though the majority comes from the US in USD) Don't get me wrong, I earn a fucking kings ransom, and I don't mind paying that amount of tax.

but. If I was earning maybe 4x that amount, I could probably avoid a whole bunch of tax. It doesn't seem correct that the richer you get, the more optional tax is.

maccard•57m ago
The thing is it’s not even 4x that amount, it’s more like 20x that amount.
itsmek•1h ago
Because physical presence incurs costs to taxpayer funded infrastructure? Why should I be able to dodge taxes by working remotely abroad? Are you saying independently wealthy people should be able to roam around and freeload without paying tax to their resident nation?

In the US many people falsely believe illegal immigrants do exactly that, and that lie has contributed to a lot of outrage, so obviously people perceive the system you're proposing as unjust.

u8080•1h ago
But illegal immigrants indeed does not pay taxes in the place of residence, why "falsely"?
stetrain•53m ago
> Undocumented immigrants paid $96.7 billion in federal, state, and local taxes in 2022. Most of that amount, $59.4 billion, was paid to the federal government while the remaining $37.3 billion was paid to state and local governments.

https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/

Izikiel43•19m ago
I get property and sales taxes, but how are they paying income tax? Shouldn’t they have a SSN for that?
vel0city•12m ago
Tax Identification Numbers are a separate ID number for people without SSNs. Loads of legal migrants don't have SSNs but still pay taxes as well.
crazygringo•1h ago
Morally speaking, there are two principles at play.

The first is paying your fair share of taxes for enabling the system of rule of law, financial protection, courts, stability provided by national defense, etc. that help you earn that money in the first place. This argues for paying taxes in the country where the money is earned.

The second is the principle of progressive taxation that funds the entire social system where you live -- roads, schools, parks, police, health care, retirement. The richer you are, the higher the rate you can and should give back. Thus it doesn't matter whether you make your money at home or abroad -- it counts toward the taxes you're morally obligated to pay for where you reside and/or are a citizen of.

Because these conflict, the US allows for Americans to let taxes paid abroad count against their US taxes, so they're not double-taxed. Which is one form of a reasonable compromise. There are many other forms you could imagine.

ForHackernews•54m ago
Are you asking why any country is able to impose a tax on its residents? Morally, because they owe an obligation to the society they live in. Practically, because the state has a local monopoly on violence and may jail them unless they pay.
throwmeaway222•1h ago
I imagine the exodus was where the corporation is incorporated. And on paper someone with billions of dollars now has a mere 500k. Or whatever loophole their lawyers decided to figure out.
gadders•2h ago
Weren't there other restrictions as well? i.e could only stay 90 days at a time etc.
graemep•2h ago
There may have been a gain to attracting super-rich people to live in the UK historically (this is an OLD rule) however people no longer necessarily invest where they live so the benefit is far more limited, and is offset by effects such as making property in London a lot more expensive for everyone else.

In any case the super-rich are only taxed on income they take out of their businesses. That also limits the benefits of both attracting them, and of exempting them.

I do not see any evidence that there was a net benefit from this exemption.

nobodyandproud•42m ago
> however people no longer necessarily invest where they live

This is a problem. The UK is experiencing what the US is experiencing so I hope you don't mind.

I'm all invested in the US. My citizenship, my family ties, my finances, and my language. Immigrating to a five-eyes nation would be far easier for me (racism aside).

There's no going back for me and my family, unless I want to immigrate out and start from the very bottom with absolutely nothing.

Because I'm a naturalized US citizen and I'm not white, I also harbor no illusions: There's every reason to believe that if this administration and its extremists continue down its trajectory, I and my family will eventually be subject to the worst.

I'm also not wealthy: So it's in my best interest to be a moderating voice, fight for the values that define my home, be seen giving back/paying it forward, and push for the best outcome for my home.

I'm not sure how to quantify the value add of this, and the wealthy transnationals who distinctly take without being a net positive--because they can so easily relocate--are a large part of the problem.

palmotea•1h ago
> The removal of this non-domiciled status is clearly far more significant than a normal tax increase. The UK was a uniquely attractive destination for the super-rich, because they could enjoy all the amenities of living in London with no real concerns about the tax implications. It is plausible that many of those people will decide to pay UK tax rather than move abroad, but we are talking about an exceptionally highly-mobile group who have already made the decision to move country, many primarily or solely for tax reasons.

Boo hoo, let them move to some remote tax haven then, and live there next to their money and incorporation documents.

brainwad•54m ago
If that would have been the actual response, it wouldn't have made sense to proceed with the reform. The goal of treasury should be to maximise social welfare, not lose tax money just to dunk on the ultrarich.
sgt101•1h ago
But whatever happens the uk will not lose tax income from these people. Yes, they will not buy expensive property. Yes they will not buy designer goods... but if they leave will the impact on the average citizen be at all significant?
dh2022•1h ago
Exactly. These people did not come to create new companies, employ people, come up with new products. These people came to London to party, not to contribute. They will take their party with them, but not their contributions - because there are none.
maccard•58m ago
Those people are already not paying tax in the UK though. The former PM’s wife has saved more in tax because of her status than everyone who works in my company combined will pay in income tax in their entire lives.
gadders•2h ago
>>where a few people throw up their hands and go "oh I've had enough".

Yes, it's called the Laffer Curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

georgeecollins•1h ago
It also seems kind of short sighted to assume that there are no risks to having wealth in Dubai or citizenship there. I am not throwing shade at Dubai. The UK has been a peaceful prosperous place for over two hundred years. The future is unknown but I would assume Dubai carries some risk premium.
jordanb•1h ago
I remember reading Huey Long's book. The oil companies were threatening to leave Louisiana. He asked them "you going to take the oil with you?"
varjag•1h ago
Right. We have some wealthy friends here in Norway who's also bemoaning the taxes and always bringing up moving someplace like Switzerland. Except it's never going to happen: in the kind of business they are (very mundane, not any kind of natsec) once you moved out you're an outsider.
dfxm12•3h ago
A millionaire exodus widely reported by news outlets around the world in 2024, and credited for the UK Labour government’s decision to weaken tax reforms, did not occur, the Tax Justice Network reveals.

Not to excuse Labour's part in this, but this is a side effect of most news outlets being consolidated and owned by relatively few rich people.

KaiserPro•1h ago
well, and that its a stats heavy pre-made easy headline that doesn't take much to write.

In addition you can put any spin on it you like, to suit your agenda.

jmyeet•3h ago
The "but the millionaires will leave" trope is just propaganda to justify massive wealth transfers from the poor to the already rich. There are two big reasons why this isn't true:

1. Physical assets, particularly real estate, can't leave. You can't pick up parts of Manhattan and move them elsewhere. Likewise, resource assets like mines, farms and oil wells can't move either; and

2. As long as there's profit to be made, companies won't leave regardless of tax rates. This one comes up a lot with the rent-seeking pharma companies in the US who will sell something here for $1000 but sell it in France for $10. What you have to remember is that if selling for $10 in France wasn't profitable, they wouldn't do it.

The one thing we need to clamp down is allowing people to avoid paying for the society that makes wealth possible. Want to own property in the US? Great. Your worldwide income is now taxable. Want to avoid tax by transferring your "IP" to an Irish subsidiary and then paying royalty payments? Yeah, let's stop that.

We need to stop people getting the benefits of owning assets in a society while avoiding all the obligations.

Nursie•2h ago
2 comes up in Australia a lot in regards to levying taxes on the resource sector, whose business model is digging up bits of Australia and selling it overseas.

Any/all attempts to levy more taxes on their vast profits are met with claims that they’ll just pack up and leave, even though the activity would still be profitable.

It never really made sense, but they always manage to drum up enough fear to scupper any plans.

SilverElfin•2h ago
It’s about opportunity cost. Just being profitable is not enough.
Nursie•2h ago
Not really, no. And when the measures very occasionally pass, oh look, nobody actually packs up and leaves.
SilverElfin•2h ago
> The one thing we need to clamp down is allowing people to avoid paying for the society that makes wealth possible.

How does society make this wealth possible? Things like roads or schooling or electricity are deserving of a fee for the service provided. Not a perpetual share of your wealth. Imagine if every business you purchase from did the same thing. It doesn’t make sense.

As an example, nothing SF does (as a government) causes it to be a good place to build companies. That’s just network effects between VCs and founders and others. If the ecosystem were elsewhere it would still function just as well.

jmyeet•2h ago
> How does society make this wealth possible?

You're kidding right? A stable society is necessary for wealth to exist. A lot goes into creating a stable society. Education, law and order, roads, access to food and drinking water, affordable shelter and giving people hope for their futures.

War and revolution are the ultimate forms of wealth redistribution. It's why the descendants of the descendants of monarchs and wealthy families don't control all the wealth today.

Leftists (of which I include myself) are demonized by neofeudal serfs who have replaced Catholicism with Capitalism but all we're trying to do is avoid the outcome we're hurtling towards where the heads of the wealthy end up on spikes outside the city walls and we have land reforms.

ghurtado•2h ago
> You're kidding right? A stable society is necessary for wealth to exist.

Unfortunately, you are not going to reach this kind of "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" with logic.

These people think that "wealth" is some kind of magical golden poop that millionaires produce every day from their golden toilets, for the betterment of society. "trickle down" economics I believe they call it.

How do you even begin to talk to someone like that?

ghurtado•2h ago
> electricity are deserving of a fee for the service provided

You should take your revolutionary business ideas and make a business with them.

Anyway, I'm gonna go pay my power bill.

rcpt•2h ago
> 1.

The correct way to handle that is a Land Value Tax but nobody is ready for that conversation.

bluecalm•1h ago
>>The one thing we need to clamp down is allowing people to avoid paying for the society that makes wealth possible. Want to own property in the US? Great. Your worldwide income is now taxable. Imagine I own property in country A and conduct most of my business and own most of my assets in country B. Why should A have a claim to my world wide income and not B? What about a situation when I conduct my business in 20 different countries. Why should country A get the claim for my income?

The way to make it sane is to tax local assets, local consumption and doing business at specific location (IP protection revenue based taxes for example). If you attempt to tax world wide assets you will always get a situation when people choose another country to tax them. You can't claim it's exactly your country that deserves all the tax.

lowkey_•2h ago
Three notes after reading, the first one being glaringly disingenuous and weird:

> The Tax Justice Network’s review – co-published with Patriotic Millionaires UK and Tax Justice UK – of the Henley report finds that the number of millionaires claimed by Henley & Partners to be leaving countries in “exodus” in 2024 represented near-0% of those countries’ millionaire populations. For example, the 9500 millionaires widely reported to be leaving the UK in 2024 represented 0.3% of the UK’s 3.06 million millionaires.

#1: The data is completely arbitrary, incorrectly compared, and adds no new insights.

The tax changes, AFAIK, are specifically aimed at generating more tax revenue from the foreign millionaires who have been using the UK's non-dom tax advantages, by getting rid of that status.

The counter rhetoric was "if even a fraction of those millionaires leave, the UK will actually lose tax revenue instead."

This article does not report on any actual adjusted numbers to the 9500 millionaires reported leaving, it just says "guys we have a lot more millionaires" — vast majority of whom are not foreign / dom-status, and therefore will not be affected anyways. No new tax revenue from them by eliminating non-dom status. It's apples-to-oranges.

Basically, they're not even using the correct denominator (foreign millionaires).

#2: This was written by an organization seeking to end tax havens, which doesn't really acknowledge that, while calling out the bias of the original report by the organization that helps secure golden visas.

#3: "credited for the UK Labour government’s decision to weaken tax reforms" — it sounds like the original government decision wasn't even passed, though I'm not sure about this, it would mean that you can't say "X didn't cause Y as was predicted" when X didn't actually occur in full.

ghurtado•2h ago
If you are going to quote half the article (that I've just read) to make your point, I'm definitely not going to make it to the end of your comment.

I don't need to read it again, thank you.

lowkey_•2h ago
TL;DR:

They're using the wrong denominator, comparing apples-to-oranges. They aren't actually revealing that an exodus didn't occur, they aren't debating any numbers or adding any new data.

I added context for people who aren't familiar with the UK non-dom status, or the original intention of the legislation.

They're also a very biased organization, same as the organization behind the original report apparently.

indeed30•2h ago
As long as UK taxes are flow-based and not stock-based, it seems a bit silly to base analysis on a stock-based denominator like the number of millionaires.
renewiltord•2h ago
Only sound comment here.

You can usually tell message board prevalent politics by seeing which stuff gets demands for rigor and which stuff is accepted as-is.

It's a progressive organization releasing a "study".

ritzaco•2h ago
> Moreover, the report uses a far narrower definition of ‘millionaires’ that does not include all dollar millionaires like the standard definition (people with net worth of 1 million dollars or more), but rather only individuals with liquid assets worth 1 million dollars or more, who are thus richer and more mobile on average than a standardly defined millionaire.16 In the case of the UK, the ‘millionaires’ identified by the report represent just a fifth (20%) of the UK millionaire population.17

So the first report said people with liquid money chose to move it out of the UK. This report says actually anyone with a largish paid off house in a good area should be counted, and as they didn't sell their house and move, there's no problem.

I appreciate that they point out the biases of the first article, but I still find the 'liquid millionaire' a more interesting stat. The Times also reported that the UK collected less tax revenue after trying to tax the ultra rich more [0][1].

So at the moment I'd say both people are stating their side too strongly and the truth is maybe somewhere in the middle but I'm still leaning towards 'rich people are leaving the UK if they can' based on what I've read.

[0] https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-t... [1] https://archive.ph/qXcUc

ionwake•2h ago
Yeah thats because the INCREASE in capital gains tax occured recently, so the data that matters is the 2025 cohort surely. I would bet my left squirrel nut that there is a massive outflow in 2025. If anything the 2024 concerns were prescient.
dagaci•2h ago
The media hysteria about a millionaire exodus happened in 2024, not 2025. 10900 articles were in 2024 not 2025 so the hysteria happened in 2024. The interesting part is: those spreading hysteria don’t need to provide evidence; they just simply repeat.

Then those locked into the X-rinse-and-repeat-loop echo the same hysteria, as if they’ve just discovered some kind of wisdom when they have simply been overtrained.

ionwake•20m ago
Im not trying to be difficult Im just saying that there is a mass exodus, its probably late, but getting worse so the articles were in a sense a good warning for things to come.
xienze•2h ago
> For example, the 9500 millionaires widely reported to be leaving the UK in 2024 represented 0.3% of the UK’s 3.06 million millionaires.

I think this study is a bit misleading. If the UK truly has 3M millionaires I strongly suspect a large majority of them are regular people with OK jobs that are “millionaires” by virtue of owning a house and having retirement savings. The vast majority of these people are likely making decent but not remarkable incomes and likely can’t afford to relocate to another country. Without breaking this down into income groups, this article seems fairly misleading. But that’s par for the course I guess, since media and politicians a) frequently conflate wealth with income and b) are counting on people thinking a net worth of a million (dollars|pounds) makes a person “rich.”

adamors•2h ago
In the UK every 3rd older homeowner is essentially a millionaire

https://theferret.scot/27-per-cent-pensioners-millionaires-m...

dagaci•2h ago
The criteria is someone with 1 million in liquid investable wealth - homes are not investable assets or liquid.

This is actually stated in the report xD

TrackerFF•2h ago
Here in Norway we have a sort of unique wealth tax, and ever since, there's been nothing but doom and gloom in the media about wealthy people exiling to Switzerland. Especially the past couple of months, in the run-up to the election. The wealth tax debate was all-consuming, and really did reach a fever pitch.

Turns out, of course, that some of the rich folks that did move to Switzerland, were funding PR and social media campaigns on this topic.

It was so omnipresent, that even high school kids had "wealth tax" as one of their most important topics.

EDIT: Personally, I think their strategy kind of backfired. There was just too much talk about wealth tax, which doesn't seriously affect too many here. They did try to angle it as "If all the billionaires leave, who's gonna create jobs for the rest?" - but it still didn't resonate too much with the average citizen.

idiotsecant•2h ago
What a delightfully sane and refreshing response. It's nice to hear that places outside the US are capable of rational discourse. I'll go back to my burning dumpster fire now.
1234letshaveatw•2h ago
Yes, there is such a dearth of "eat the rich" voices in the US. There is nowhere to buy cheeseburgers here either.
weberer•2h ago
The threshold for Norway's wealth tax is having a total net worth around 150,000 euros, regardless of income. That should affect pretty much everyone who's owned a house for more than a decade.
MeetingsBrowser•2h ago
Is this meant to say 1,500,000 euros? 150,000 euros is ~$175k USD and the average US home price is currently sitting around $500k for reference.

edit: it does appear that 150,000 is correct, but it is an additional 0.1% tax on wealth above 150,000 euros.

Still basically nothing for the overwhelming majority of people. An additional $1,000 a year for every $1,000,000 you are worth.

LM358•2h ago
Wealth tax on houses (and apartments, cabins etc..) are calculated as 25% of market value up to 10 MNOK and 70% over that. So you'd need to own a rather luxurious house before having to pay a rather modest tax.

Some municipalities also have a separate property tax which iirc is usually an order of magnitude lower than the wealth tax.

kreyenborgi•1h ago
Buying a house is actually a simple way to avoid the wealth tax.

If you've owned a house for a decade you typically have like 15 or 20 years left on your mortgage and are in debt. The tax worth of the house is some fraction of the sale price, so for a house that one might sell today for €500k the tax value could be like €50k. At the same time, typical debt after only ten years is probably almost half the house price (assuming you had some savings before buying the house). And with debt, that's what your earnings go to... I as an above-median earning Norwegian with house (and thus very negative worth) will probably have decades before getting anywhere near the threshold. And even then you only pay for what's over the threshold, so if you're At the threshold you pay nothing.

RegW•2h ago
Oh, I remember the joy I felt when Phil Collins finally f'd off to Switzerland.

I can't wait for Ed Sheeran to follow him - clearly we need to more to make those pips squeak.

eertami•2h ago
If someone's aim is to avoid a wealth tax, then moving to Switzerland (one of the few other countries with a wealth tax) seems like a confusing choice. The Swiss wealth tax is payable in some cantons from ~50k Euros.
xur17•2h ago
Switzerland's wealth tax is a lot more reasonable though. UK is 2%, Norway is 1.1%, the Swiss ones are all below 1% (depends on your canton), ex the Zug canton is 0.21%.
simonsquiff•1h ago
There is no UK wealth tax - just your normal income / capital gains tax etc. Dont know what your 2% is meant to be referring to here.
tchalla•50m ago
All that matters is the total tax. You calculate the toes tax in Switzerland (including wealth tax) to that of Norway and then you may see it’s a clear choice.
olavgg•1h ago
TrackerFF sounds like someone on the left trying to defend the wealth tax. As a Norwegian who believes in freedom and the right for anyone to start their own business, I think the wealth tax is one of the most toxic taxes ever introduced. In practice, it makes Norwegian-owned companies about 30% less competitive than foreign-owned ones.

It’s sold as a “tax on the rich,” but in reality it’s a 2.1% annual tax on businesses. The companies have to cover these costs, and the result is that everyone — rich or poor — ends up paying for it. The only winner here is the state, which wastes the money on useless projects and subsidies.

It gets even dumber: businesses that invest in emergency preparedness — like storing gravel or materials for war or disaster scenarios — actually get punished by the wealth tax. Imagine paying 2.1% tax every year on a gravel pile. No, this is not a joke: link: https://www.dn.no/innlegg/beredskap/sikkerhetspolitikk/formu...

The consequences are clear: more than half of the 400 wealthiest people in Norway have already left the country. There’s no risk capital left for startups, and outside the oil and gas sector, businesses are struggling. Plenty of smart young engineers fresh out of university can’t find work, and hiring of junior software developers has basically stopped.

When we talk about taxes, we should be talking about incentives and motivation. If you tax people so hard that they lose the drive to work and create, then you’ve got a real problem.

If I had the chance, I’d move to Sweden or Switzerland immediately. But I can’t, because I’ve got a family to take care of here.

pcrh•14m ago
The negative impact of wealth taxes is vastly over-stated.

Obviously the impact depends on the level of taxation, but it is instructive to compare it with inflation. Typical wealth taxes are in the region of 1% per year; a 1% (additional) annual rate of inflation would have the same impact on wealth as the tax and not be considered disastrous for any business except those with very marginal profitability.

AnotherGoodName•2h ago
Reminds me of some commentary on Frances new billionaire tax.

"Frances riches man opposes new tax".

Response: "Ok that's one vote against. Now how many for the new tax?"

rcpt•2h ago
Fun fact: in France the median pensioner earns more than the median worker now
klipt•2h ago
Gerontocracy?
AnotherGoodName•2h ago
To be clear the statement is that people of pension age earn more than others. Not that they earn more from the pension specifically. Retirement account investments have been generating huge returns for a while now and wages have been stagnating. Which is a problem but no one should read this as "Frances pension is too high" since that's not what this statement is about.
wagwang•46m ago
The median person does not have a investment account so that is completely moot. The bottom 50% probably owns less than 1% of stock in aggregate.
drstewart•2h ago
Or the actors signing a petition for Jimmy Kimmel. Okay, 300 rich actors are for him. Now how many want him off the air?
PickledJesus•2h ago
The Henley and partners analysis isn't very good, but nor is this, both are from biased sources. It seems to amount to "that isn't a large proportion" rather than looking at the trend.

Dan Neidle[1] and the FT[2] have already done much better debunking of it, although that doesn't mean there isn't truth to it, just that Henley and Partners's report doesn't prove anything.

Chris Giles at the FT did a good summary[3]

[1] https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/07/27/henley-partners-milliona... [2] https://www.ft.com/content/28ebf57d-af22-48a0-91b9-880e3f1fb... https://archive.is/w6New [3] https://www.ft.com/content/0a24be5e-395e-43db-a91f-4b4f02d99... https://archive.is/Le05V

CommanderData•2h ago
Tax wealthy elite AND make it illegal for them to fund PR stories.
Andrew_nenakhov•2h ago
Free speech is always the first victim of socialists.
ghurtado•2h ago
Yes, we've been reading a lot in the media lately about the LEFT attacking free speech with unprecedented zeal and cancelling all manner of right wing opinions, shows and pundits that don't support their dogma 100%.

Wait, no. The exact opposite is happening. My bad, it's easy to get confused.

gadders•2h ago
It's easy to get confused if you have amnesia and forget the previous presidential term.
djohnston•1h ago
Shooting someone through the throat with a high-powered rifle during a university debate certainly seems like an attack on free speech, but maybe I don't have your nuanced understanding of the issue.
ghurtado•54m ago
> I don't have your nuanced understanding of the issue.

Let me help unconfuse you, then:

- government swiftly, immediately and directly cancelling a show from a private company because someone said something that's not good for "the party": attack on free speech.

- murder of Charlie Kirk: politically motivated murder by a deranged psycho, which is immediately exploited to AMPLIFY right wing views and cancel left wing ones.

So tell me again, based on what one is currently allowed to say about this very topic: what ideas is the right no longer able to express openly and loudly as a result of this murder?

Don't say "Charlie Kirk": I've heard more of his ideas in recent weeks than I would have if he hadn't been shot.

djohnston•45m ago
> and cancel left wing ones.

"Left ones" being, celebrating murder? Assuming you weren't living under a rock for the past decade, do you think celebrating murder is less severe than right-wing views (critical of BLM, critical of feminism, critical of pro-choice) that were routinely cancelled by left-wing institutions (social media, university) over this time frame?

text0404•26m ago
Please tell us how Matthew Dowd celebrated Kirk's murder? Or Kimmel?

Furthermore, celebrating murder is still free speech. For example, we've had to endure years of jokes about the murders of George Floyd and Trayvon Martin, the flame continuously stoked by Charlie Kirk and his colleagues.

Kirk was ultimately "cancelled" by the same society that he fomented. He was against empathy, used his platform to disparage and attack vulnerable groups, against gun control, and literally said that gun deaths are a worthy price for the 2nd amendment. He was a victim of a violent society he actively encouraged and campaigned for. Pointing this out is not celebrating murder.

SilverElfin•1h ago
Are we ignoring the vast censorship schemes on social media that all lean left? You can’t discuss certain topics or viewpoints in these public squares at all. Both sides are capable of acting against a free speech. But I think in the last 10 years in America, it has been the left acting against it.
Capricorn2481•1h ago
Can you name a platform capable of censorship, other than Reddit, that leans left?
SilverElfin•22m ago
TikTok. Bluesky (more nuances here). YouTube. Maybe it has reduced a bit in YouTube. But it’s still there.
nick__m•2h ago
There a significant difference between a paid PR campaign and a letter to the editor of The Wall Street Journal. Parent didn't said silence the rich, he says ban PR stories.

Personally I would ban unattributed PR. If Larry Ellison want to buy a thousand billboard and write: "Don't taxe me or I will leave. I am Larry and endorse this message" that's ok.

But if he use a PR firm to shift the public opinion with unattributed advertisement and paid-for journal articles that should not be acceptable.

Alas the US Supreme Court decied otherwise in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission...

barbazoo•2h ago
Always?
antman•2h ago
Well did their millions leave? Did the overall tax from millionaires change? The actual people count is irrelevamt, one tax was decreased humdreds of other loopholes probably exist. Omly the total tax collected counts the rest is for media consumption.
slater•2h ago
What always gets me with this kind of "millionaires will take their money away!!!" story is that, for one, they weren't paying much to begin with (thanks to tax dodges, endless tax relief due to various forms of "philanthropy", etc.), and two, we used to soak the rich six ways from Sunday up to the 50s/60s, and we got to go to the moon. Then the 70s rolled around, the hippies grew up and said "no more of that", and presto-change-oh, https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

Oh and three, for all the warnings and blackmailing, as the studies show, they never actually go through with their threats. MACO - Millionaires Always Chicken Out? /s

codeulike•2h ago
Its really easy to ask people "will you do X if change Y happens?" and get a Yes response (or the more loaded version "are you concerned that you will have to do X if Y happens?") and its very easy to then write news articles based on that survey.

How many of those people actually follow through and do X is a very different question.

gadders•2h ago
See also: People that claim they will leave Country X if Person Y gets elected.
keyme•2h ago
"The UKs 3.06 million millionaires". LOL. Every geriatric with a centrally located apartment is a "millionaire" nowdays. But I'm sure the "tax justice" network doesn't actually understand the difference.
0xy•2h ago
The boomers with million pound houses are all leeching pensions too. The society is disintegrating. The young are milked like tax livestock while they import millions of people.
keyme•1h ago
Indeed, as is obvious to anyone productive. Taxes come from the productive and entrepreneurial, of which of the 10k that did leave are a big portion, and that's before actually comparing the incomes as opposed to the net worth.
teamonkey•1h ago
That figure came from Swiss bank UBS, one of the reports that made the news making the claim that millionaires would leave if taxes were raised.

https://www.ft.com/content/a578561c-05de-402b-8ba7-91f2d77c5...

CrulesAll•2h ago
If you fail to understand the context of this farce, with the UK economy tanking, I've got a bridge to sell you. Ignoring those who have left(and completely ignoring a six figure engineer, medical doctor etc are as valuable as millionaires) you don't invest in the UK. You don't hire. You let people go. You don't increase wages. You don't take any risks, and you lower the amount of labour you supply. You get the exact economic results the UK have now. Taxing success has never and will never work. Jesus, even all the Nordic PM's had to come to Harvard to make this point.

'Tax justice' is a political group. Just stop citing such drivel as almost mathematical fact.

walthamstow•2h ago
The original analysis piece by Henley & Partners (clue's in the name) has to be one of the most successful pieces of marketing by a financial manager in quite some time.
cs02rm0•2h ago
Strange to see this here, it's quite delayed.

The Henley data was poor, but this criticism was too. I don't think we have the data and I fear the Henley data actually underestimates the reality.

FWIW, anecdotally my peers with the means are all looking at leaving and some have gone. I've closed down my business, my wife is looking at keeping hers running remotely because of the staff in it.

And I'm typing this from a Dubai hotel room while I spend a couple of months seeing if I can set something new up that I can do from here. I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place and there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

metabagel•2h ago
Not much in the way of details in your post. You're shutting down your business and moving for... reasons.

It boggles my mind that any westerner would choose to live and work in Dubai. Their laws and rules are very different from ours.

I do see that they have made some steps toward reform of their debtors prisons. I'm very glad to see that, but I still do not consider Dubai to be a safe place to even visit, let alone live there.

https://jamesberrylaw.com/news-details/no-prison-for-debt

logicchains•2h ago
>It boggles my mind that any westerner would choose to live and work in Dubai. Their laws and rules are very different from ours.

As long as you're not borrowing money from local entities, you're almost certainly not going to run into any trouble like that in Dubai. In practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK; the government generally doesn't bother you or care what you're doing, as long as you don't get on the bad side of someone well-connected.

KaiserPro•2h ago
> in practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK;

> as long as you don't get on the bad side of someone well-connected.

Thats a huge fucking caveat. given that the law is very much stacked in the favour of citizens, then if you do get into trouble, you're in deep shit fast.

logicchains•1h ago
Yep, but if you're moving from the UK you've probably got some kind of international business or clients so are unlikely to have much interaction with the locals. This is even formalised in the business system there; if you're not doing business with locals, you can open a free-zone company, which are much easier/cheaper to open, but restricted to primarily doing business with overseas entities.
barbazoo•1h ago
> In practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK

Even for women?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emira...

cs02rm0•1h ago
The list of reasons really is too long to include. From the continued worsening of individual bits of tax legislation such as IR35, dividend allowances, employers NI, corporation tax, etc. to the stalling of real GDP per capita combined with an increased population and the consequentially stretched hospitals, transport, etc, the draconian policing of social media... it's pointless me trying to list it all really.

Dubai is a bit of a trigger for some people. Others I know are going/gone to Portugal, Malta, Cyprus, the US, Aus, Can, NZ, Singapore, France. Your mileage may vary - people leaving can generally give you similar lists of why, but where they go seems varied.

I used to live in Saudi for a time (25+ years ago), and actually really liked much about it then and it had changed markedly when I've been back more recently. I've visited Iraq, I've been detained in Oman under suspicion of espionage and still see virtues in the place. Dubai is positively liberal by comparison and becoming more liberal, while the UK is becoming more authoritarian and despite the official crime statistics, I'm not sure it's as safe as it once was.

logicchains•2h ago
>I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place and there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

On the bright side, the weather in Dubai is much better than the UK's.

cs02rm0•1h ago
Starting every day with a swim in the sunshine does go a long way.
barbazoo•1h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Dubai

Looks unhealthy unless one has air conditioning a lot of the year.

logicchains•57m ago
The heat can be uncomfortable, but doesn't bring the vitamin D deprivation and seasonal depression associated with the UK climate.
KaiserPro•1h ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002304z

this goes over the data. But in short its super patchy, based on a very small dataset, and a whole lot of vibes.

> UK is not in a good place

That may be, but dubai is basically farage's wet dream.

csb6•1h ago
It shouldn’t surprise me that people are unfazed by the fact that the UAE is built on labor by indentured servants with few rights and is rife with human rights abuses, but I suppose being “business friendly” trumps all if your top priority is avoiding taxes and accumulating wealth.
floren•41m ago
When you put it that way, it's amazing Bezos hasn't already moved.
youngtaff•1h ago
The UK could be in a better position but it’s not in a bad place…
tremarley•2h ago
From first hand experience, every British millionaire I grew up with or know, have left the UK for a country that treats them better.

The only ones that haven’t moved, are those who are considering it, can’t move cause their business is dependant on the UK, or their family/kids need them in the UK.

If your income doesn’t require you to stay in the UK, why would you stay there?

kimixa•1h ago
And yet none of the richer people I know have left[0], despite some of them making a lot of noise about it .

Sometimes an anecdote is just an anecdote I guess.

[0] or at least haven't spent any less time in the UK, and are still resident, as some already spend a lot of time in a number of different countries

nxm•2h ago
Isn't this too short of a time window to properly gauge? It takes a while to relocate and move assets. Let's see the numbers in 5 years. I also feel the study misses the fact that it disincentives investment in the UK long term, but that's harder to objectively gauge.
ineedaj0b•1h ago
It does take a good deal of time. Another missed angle is how hard this group is to study: I imagine they never respond to surveys.

From what I know from a friend in that type of group London is no longer the place to park money. Not sure where it’s switched to.

skippyboxedhero•1h ago
It isn't hard to objectively gauge. The annual tax revenue shortfall is running at nearly £10bn this year, this is despite a high levels of earnings growth due to Labour agreeing to huge pay increases for the public sector.

There is an obsession on the left in the UK with the media being allowed to publish things that, as of the last election, disagree with the government narrative. Part of this is the construction of narratives that will focus on specific pieces of information that are misleading, as evidence that all associated claims are wrong.

This happens so consistently and often on almost every issue.

The UK has economic problems, lobbying groups have significant power in the UK, this lobbyist is part of the group saying that taxes aren't high enough and that if we just tax more then we will become a wealthy nation, they have been saying this since they were founded, tax revenue has gone up a lot and they are still saying it (because, as ever, it just hasn't been tried the right way).

To cut through the nonsense: we are taxing more and it doesn't appear to be working, tax revenue has gone up significantly over the past five years and we got poorer, the political requirement for more tax revenue is significantly outpacing the ability of the few paying tax to earn those amounts (there is a £50bn "black hole"...not deficit, just the shortfall that has opened up in the past year or so caused by the weak economy...senior Labour MPs/ministers are still pushing for welfare spending to increase significantly), and there is no limitless source of money that can be endlessly extracted from to generate revenue...we know this because the UK has devolved governments with higher income tax rates, these rates raise less revenue not more.

Btw, I will also add a general point that isn't acknowledged as a unfortunate result of recent events: the massive shortfall is based on numbers that are wildly optimistic. OBR growth forecasts were much higher than the market after Labour's election, they made no sense. OBR often produces numbers that are very helpful for the incumbent government, they did this for the Tories. Unsurprisingly, the OBR is now slashing forecasts and it is all going wrong...but this was all predictable from the start, it isn't hard, it is very obvious, it just requires being able to separate reality from motivated thinking (i.e. impossible for most people, let alone politicians who are simian in their capacity to see reality). The OP talks about the media...almost no-one covered these crooked numbers, no-one is covering it now, no-one will cover it because it disagrees with the political narrative of the "right-wing" media.

None of this is hard to objectively gauge, it is very easy to gauge because you just talk to people and look at the incentives they face. Labour and their associated lobbyists do not live on the same planet as normal people, they should not be taken as evidence of any kind of reality (lobbyists generally...you would think this would be obvious but politics is so embedded in life in the UK that they are the main source of reality).

sgt101•1h ago
My analysis is that if 55-64 year old were as economically active as 45-54 year olds the deficit would disappear.

The way to get this to happen is to stamp on age discrimination, provide more retraining, improve pension incentives, and tightening sick benefits sharply.

skippyboxedhero•36m ago
That isn't the case. Aging has very little to do with our issues. The amount of revenue generated by people in their 30s is nowhere near enough to pay for the state as it is. The biggest marginal increase in sickness benefits has been people in 20/30s.

However, I don't think the point is an economic one anyway: age discrimination is terrible, retraining is great, etc.

Generally, I don't think the issue is as simple as sickness benefits. Fifteen years ago, that would have worked. The problem is a very systemic one of allocating massive amount of economic resources to unproductive activity. For example, the massive growth in public sector employment has created this economy of skills that have no function in any capitalist society. It is far more systemic, aging will make this worse but we are nowhere near that point and there are so many easy ways to improve growth. The ultimate issue is that the UK is a low-skill economy, and there are massive incentives for this to never change.

WalterBright•2h ago
I personally know several people who left Washington state because of the recently enacted capital gains tax.

The tax was targeted at Jeff Bezos, but he decamped to Florida just before it went into effect.

seizethecheese•1h ago
Bezos famously says that when the anecdotes conflict with the data, trust the anecdotes
cloverich•24m ago
It's an interesting one because its relatively mild; we decamped _to_ Washington from Oregon (very partially) because the tax was so much more favorable in Washington.

(Washington tax here is cap gains at 7% which doesn't kick in until capital gains > 250k)

rsynnott•1h ago
Yeah, it turns out that being a tax exile is not for everyone, and indeed is not for practically anyone. This is always _vastly_ overhyped as a risk.
djohnston•1h ago
Can we get this reproduced by someone not as obviously biased as the "Tax Justice Network"? It's absurd that this organisation's findings would be taken at face value.
anigbrowl•1h ago
I have to ask, did you say the thing at the time the supposed exodus was getting lots of media coverage? I expressed skepticism about it at the time, although I did not pay it too much attention because I don't live int he UK. But any skepticism about such a prediction always incurs a bunch of people insisting I don't understand economics and explanation of how freely the wealthy can flee a high tax jurisdiction.

I notice you don't identify any particular investigative shortcomings or fallacies in the report; you just think it's absurd to even consider the viewpoint of an organization that argues the wealthy are undertaxed.

WickyNilliams•1h ago
The original report this article responds to was out put by a company that sells golden passports, and their study involved trawling linkedin. If there are concerns around methodology and bias, then you are absolutely right we should start there
swarnie•1h ago
I'm also interested in how they've come up with the 3 million millionaires in the UK figure, they only seem to cite themselves for the data.

4.5% of the entire country are millionaires? On paper or in home equity + pension maybe... But those aren't the people we're concerned about leaving.

djohnston•1h ago
Nan is selling her home and moving to Barcelona - another mover and shaker gone!
teamonkey•33m ago
They cite Swiss bank UBS, there’s a table in the footnotes. I’m not convinced about that figure myself but they are responding to the announcement that was put out by UBS.
vessenes•47m ago
The article is basically worthless. Wealth follows a power law; saying 90x% of millionaires didn’t move is noise. The very wealthy are in fact moving; they don’t want to be subject to a tax jurisdiction that claims reach on global income. Now, they weren’t paying tax on that income before, so it’s not like it will make a huge impact on UK revenues, but I know that those folks tend to hire local professional services, bankers, etc; we’ll see if they keep doing business with the UK or look elsewhere, like the US. Smart money would be on the US + Dubai right now I think.
kragen•1h ago
0% is not a valid approximation of "0.3% per year" (the relative error is (0 - 0.3) ÷ 0 = ∞ or (0 - 0.3) ÷ 0.3 = 100%), and I note that this article is strangely silent on what fraction of the total wealth of the 3.06 million millionaires was owned by those 9500 millionaires who left in 02024. Given that the rest of the article is mostly talking about golden-passport schemes which I think typically cost about a million dollars, it would be unsurprising to find that the majority of millionaires don't have enough money to participate.

My take is that, despite the ersatz news headline "...study reveals", this is a propaganda piece tailored to promote a predetermined conclusion by selective reporting of only the evidence that supports that predetermined conclusion, just like the marketing piece from Henley it is criticizing.

ackers•43m ago
Well I know of at least 1 person that left.
webdevver•26m ago
£1M is middle-class levels of money, so its hardly surprising. most of this demographic is 50+ professionals with kids, where are they gonna go?
jt2190•18m ago
> Moreover, the [Henley] report uses a far narrower definition of ‘millionaires’ that does not include all dollar millionaires like the standard definition (people with net worth of 1 million dollars or more), but rather only individuals with liquid assets worth 1 million dollars or more, who are thus richer and more mobile on average than a standardly defined millionaire. In the case of the UK, the ‘millionaires’ identified by the report represent just a fifth (20%) of the UK millionaire population. Even then, the report is based on a small sample from within these narrowly defined millionaires and the sample is skewed towards centi-millionaires and billionaires, who are also likely to be the most easily mobile.

Are "people with net worth of 1 million dollars or more" considered very wealthy in the U.K. these days? In the U.S. there are many many homeowners who are millionaires by this definition, and that's not a population that would be likely to have the means to buy their way into another country.