It seems that $15 per kWh of storage should be achievable with them. At this price, it's trivial to install enough grid-scale storage to completely move off fossil fuels in more southern areas.
-18°C to 0°C
0°F to 32°F
That still leaves an Additional overhead due to power electronics and assembly but all in all it's a pretty impressive development.
Most modern devices have an integrated 3.7v Lithium battery so standardisation should be possible but I see no market forces for this - devices with short lifespan (limited by a non-replaceable battery) are more profitable.
But please don't exactly match AA/AAA sizes. That will cause much more harm than good.
I don't think the technical difficulties are the problem here.
We might eventually get back there; maybe the EU will do for e.g. hand tool batteries what they have done for phone chargers and mandate an interchangeable standard.
To wit, in his review he-
-dismisses environmental concerns with Li
-dismisses safety concerns with Li
-dismissed geopolitical concerns with Li availability. Something something "environmentalists!" (shakes fist at clouds) like with the environmental concerns.
-dismisses economic advances of Na
And then the overwhelming focus of his review is that if you deep freeze the battery, it charges slowly. This becomes the foundation of his criticism. Only firstly it's a self solving issue -- the battery warms as it charges -- but in most situations the battery will be in a heated (or will be self-heating) scenario and at an ideal temperature.
I'm no Na booster, and it seems like an incremental improvement in various dimensions for certain scenarios, but that video adds extraordinarily little value to the space.
However, there is no mention of this technology in consumer devices and gadgets like laptops, smartphones and tablets. I get that the site is about clean technology as a replacement for the currently more polluting technology. But I’m interested to see when these sodium ion batteries will appear in phones and laptops and what difference they may make to the cost, price, weight, performance, safety, longevity, etc.
Phones and laptops are weight/volume sensitive, and sodium ions are a lot larger than lithium ions, thus the battery energy density is lower.
Sodium batteries, if the technology works, would replace EV batteries and provide support to the electrical grid, and would be purchased at thousands of times the volume of iphone ad laptop batteries
But their impact on energy storage to stabilize the grid, both technically and in terms of prices, can not be overstated. Cheap, safe storage is the key component missing in Europe for using more renewables. Without that you need to keep gas plants in reserve, should there be a few days without sun and wind.
There were a few such days in December 2024, and their impact onto energy prices is difficult for energy-intense industries. https://energy-charts.info/charts/price_average/chart.htm?l=...
But more on that point, it always struck me as bizarre that lithium was dominant in so many areas despite vastly different requirements. For home and grid storage, battery weight is almost immaterial, while it's a paramount concern in portable devices. I think it would be very surprising indeed if one chemistry performed best in all scenarios. Lithium became dominant primarily because it had so much research and supply chain maturity behind it, even if it was suboptimal for areas like grid storage. Glad to see other battery chemistries are getting more investment.
I would say the bulk price of lithium ion batteries is the most you could possibly remove via materials changes. When smaller batteries are more expensive, that's based on factors that would also affect other chemistries. And the bulk price for laptop capacity, 50-99 watt hours, is $5-10 and dropping.
That's just the old Powerwall. Most home backup batteries for the last 5 years have been LFP, not Li-ion. I think even Tesla uses LFP in Powerwalls now.
For instance startup Channing Street Copper's battery powered induction stove. Their battery is large enough to also power your refrigerator for 3 days (IIRC).
In effect, a combination Powerwall and stove. Without requiring a panel upgrade. Apartment dwellers can cost effectively electrify All The Things. It greatly improves resiliency. Unlocks distributed grid power generation and storage (IIRC something like "VPP" for "virtual power plant").
"Induction stoves with batteries built in, and why they matter" [2022]
https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-buil...
https://cmpesglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Us-Eic-Co... page 31
If a sodium battery is heavy and bigger but used for gridscale then that'll work fine.
Yes, but you don't. Those conditions are really scarce. And in the UK they're all either nature reserves or already used for this purpose.
CATL is launching volume production of their second generation sodium ion battery in December 2025. That's in about 2 months. I'm sure they'll use most of next year to ramp up production but they are targeting multiple gwh of production capacity with this first factory. More will likely follow. Apparently converting existing LFP production to this is relatively easy. This is not some experimental thing but a completely validated and ready for mass production chemistry.
Some basic stats of their cell: 175 wh/kg, ~10K charge cycles, -40 to +70 degrees celsius operating range, 5C charge rate (very fast basically). That's basically very competitive with LFP for both storage and low end EVs (up to 500km/300miles is a number they've cited).
That is all straight from CATL's recent press release on this. They are either playing some really amazing poker game here or they really are about to massively change things in the market.
That temperature range means these batteries can operate pretty much anywhere on this planet.
Peak Energy is actually starting to produce low volume production for their unique chemistry for grid storage. Their pitch is basically that they can deploy these in the desert with passive cooling only. No fans or moving parts. No cooling liquids. Nothing. Apparently this should work fine in a desert where it's freezing cold at night and blisteringly hot during the day. No fire risk. No mechanical parts that can break. Basically plonk them down and forget about them. Of course highly uncertain if they can scale all the way but it sounds promising.
There are other companies with production plans (or actual production happening) on this front as well.
Sodium ion has definitely left the labs now and it's now a matter of time before either these batteries are mass produced and widely used or something even better comes along to displace this. My guess is sodium ion will eat significantly into LFP market share for both storage and automotive in the next five years or so. After that, I would be very disappointed if nothing better comes along. Five years is about the same time it took for LFP to make a big dent into NMC market share. It might be some time before these things start showing up in the US though because of the tariff situation and the lack of local production capacity for this new chemistry. But if it is successful elsewhere, it will eventually happen there as well.
The biggest feature of this chemistry is actually the low cost of the materials. There are no exotic metals that you need. Everything needed can be sourced cheaply and locally in abbundance in pretty much every country. There have been some persistent rumors that CATL is targeting a long term cost of this chemistry of around 10$/kwh starting at maybe between 30 and 50$. 10$ is almost 10x lower than what is common today. Most EVs only have about 500-700$ worth of battery at those prices. As opposed to 5-7K right now. And many manufacturers don't produce their own cells so they would be paying more.
The cost is basically why people are a bit bullish on this technology. The low cost is a really big deal. It changes everything.
https://www.ess-news.com/2025/06/26/china-energy-engineering...
Isn’t lithium only about 15% of the cost of an LFP cell to begin with?
If you put LFP batteries packed into a cargo container next to a solar farm in California or Nevada, a significant portion of that container will be piping (to every cell) and compressors for a beefy AC system. LFP cells don't like to work hot.
This cooling system will take up a significant portion of space, power, and worst of all, of the total maintenance cost of the entire battery system.
An identical system made of Na batteries will take 2 containers, but need no cooling power and basically no maintenance - no moving parts, unlike the compressors and fans of the LFP pack.
Reverse that, why don't other countries / companies try and steal their talent and IP? Is everyone resigned to think that China are undefeatable on the technology/manufacturing of these batteries?
It's not insurmountable for 'the West' to claw back some of that manufacturing, including high-tech items like batteries. It will take a large, long-time and very expensive effort, however. But talk is cheap, and largely 'the West' has drunken the neoliberalism kool-aid and is staring at quarterly shareholder value so little gets done.
Heck, some Western government are even in bed with the fossil fuel industry, desperately trying to hold back progress in order to claw a bit more profit out of the industry before the full force of the electric revolution hits.
The west is mostly drunk on populism, nativism and boomer welfare. If it were the neoliberal hellscape you imagine, it'd at least be competitive.
The thing is, 996 works in China because China is a dictatorship where workers have no rights and for a lot of them 996 is better than the utter poverty they came from.
But we? We cannot compete with 996, not if we don't devolve to outright slavery, to conditions of the 1800s.
I have heard that the USA has abandoned that strategy recently, but I think it is too early to see any impact.
All the research is in finding ever better combinations of anode/cathode.
Lithium mining and processing is dominated by Western countries, which is why China is incentivised to develop and manufacture sodium ion batteries. They know the game and haven't ignored it, unlike the West who ignored the geopolitical risk of China dominating rare earth processing for 20+ years.
The West should have a similar incentive despite having most of the lithium, namely supply risks for graphite, cobalt and nickel. There is a lot of research going on but mostly in Europe.
Citation needed
> All the research is in finding ever better combinations of anode/cathode.
Trivial matter then.
So American companies would develop sodium instead and break this market wide open.
But the Chinese appear to have beat them to it.
At some point when Americans were still denying climate change the CCP looked at the massive environmental destruction around them and decided to do something about it.
For heavy users and given a standard range of 250+ miles, we are talking about a longevity of 1 000 000 miles. I never had a car with more than 200.000km (120 000 miles).
Also, there's just smog you need to pass which is significantly less than in many other developed countries. Some have yearly required checks that would check all safety features like brakes, tires etcetera. That's where a lot of cars fail that would just keep driving in the US
my 95 mx-5 has nearly 360,000 mi. on it
Outside of the rust belt, cars last quite awhile as long as you change oil and the occasional rubbery bit.
I'm actually scrapping a 99 Jeep TJ right now because the OEM powertrain is just awful, but the rest of the vehicle is perfectly fine.
That said, a million miles is probably enough for anyone :D
All I know is that the charge to mass ratio of an Na+ ion is less than that of an Li+ ion, and that elemental Na and Li are both highly-reactive with violent exothermic reactions when exposed to water. I need someone with chemistry or materials science experience to help me explain what the advantages are and how those advantages exist.
So yes, the battery will be heavier because sodium's heavier, but it's so much cheaper that you can afford the extra footprint.
The allure is cheaper input materials, potentially very long lifespans and creating a hedge against the boom and bust cycle of the lithium market.
> The allure is cheaper ...
When it comes to grid energy storage, cheaper (while also safe and performant) is better, don't you think?
For example NMC and LFP usually require complex cooling solutions with cooling liquids, heat pumps, hoses, etc. Peak Energy is planning to deploy a passively cooled battery in deserts. No protection from the elements. Freezing cold at night. Blazing sun during the day. Cooling solutions with all their mechanical components are the single most likely thing to fail and cause issues for storage solutions. Skipping that is a big reliability win and it reduces cost as well.
It's really well done and digs into all the details on sodium-ion. Lots to like with sodium-ion (charge rate for one) but cost isn't going to be competitive for at least 5 and more likely 10 years.
The bottom line is, mass production is starting soon at cost levels that are probably undercutting LFP from day 1. CATL is explicitly targeting use for low end EVs. IMHO this chemistry is also a good match for things like trucks given the long battery lifetime and good enough energy density. Perfect for frequent rapid charging and intensive use in long range trucks.
$10 figure is completely made up and hyped up by hype influencers .
> $10 figure is completely made up and hyped up by hype influencers
I'm pretty sure there's more to that and do note the caveats I added. CATL is one of the largest battery producers in the world and they are basically calling BS on this in a big way that's hard to argue with (i.e. planning to ship product at scale in 2 months).
Also, second generation product. They already have sodium ion based battery powered EVs in the market with their first generation. Apparently quite cheap and competitive with LFP. This is their v2.
You shouldn't believe everything on Youtube.
I presume the actual price will be set by what the market will pay, probably starting more like $50 and falling over time.
Then - why would they sell them at discount? They offer superior charge performance (dramatically higher rates and cold weather performance) when compared to LFP. LFP is a PITA in cold climate. I never get negative temperatures yet still get cold gated even in shoulder seasons!
https://www.ess-news.com/2025/06/26/china-energy-engineering...
The crashing prices of LFP batteries has been Sodium-ions nemesis the past few years since their entire gambit is using cheaper raw materials while performing good enough for certain applications.
$10/kWh for sodium ion batteries using cheaper raw materials are definitely in reach as given by recent LFP prices.
But this is currently small batches backyard production, so I expect the prices to go down. Also, the materials are available practically everywhere, so even 3rd world countries should be able to make them.
I could see quite a rapid takeoff if they prove successful next year after being mass produced because they look like maybe the best solution for grid storage.
This is partly because the US is a richer market with higher end desires but it might mislead people in that geography into thinking that the battery mass manufacturing world moves slowly.
Meanwhile in the storage market it's gone to 90% LFP as the big deployments take advantage of the cost reductions available.
In fact the biggest impediment to sodium being rolled out was continuing reductions in LFP cost which made people less enhusiastic for alternatives.
It appears they've managed to drive costs down even further, prompting its graduation into mass scale manufacture.
I see enough reports of Li battery related unpleasantness to be slightly concerned on this front, and for fixed location storage I'm less concerned with density and more so with maintenance and life span.
TFA talks about (favourable) temperature tolerance of Na, at least at the low end, I didn't see high end figures.
“One day kids, this stationary storage facility will all be yours.”
Anyway,sodium ion taking off explains the recurrent deep sales for LFP power stations. Which might still be overpriced if there developments hold up.
You can charge them when freezing, but you can discharge them while freezing.
Discharging them causes their internal temperature to rise.
Last winter (I'm in the desert in CO at about 6k feet, with temps in the single digits at some points) my graphs say that they never failed to reach 40-something degrees and charge.
Maybe there are other issues I don't know about, but I certainly hope they work as well this winter as they did last winter.
Also naively I would expect sodium batteries to be heavier that lithium, which would make them worse for transportation but still fine for energy storage.
I think a lot of households will choose Sodium just because of how cheap it will be but not until there is the basic inverter equipment to make use of it from the usual manufacturers.
Sounds price competitive already?
>In the meantime, CATL’s rival BYD said that its sodium-ion batteries have made progress in reducing cost and are already on track to be on par with lithium iron phosphate battery cost next year and even 70% less in the long run. The Chinese battery maker broke ground on a 30 GWh sodium-ion battery factory earlier this year.
A($/Wh) D(Wh/kg) D(Wh/L) P($) E(Wh) M(kg) Vol(L) V(V) C S URL(Sodium-ion)
0.46 97.50 235.79 1.81 3.9 0.04 0.017 3.0 3000 18650 https://srikobatteries.com/product/sodium-ion-18650-3-0v-1-3ah-3-90wh-20c-rechargeable-battery/
0.34 114.29 258.31 3.23 9.6 0.084 0.037 3.0 3000 26700 https://srikobatteries.com/product/sodium-ion-26700-3-0v-3-2ah-9-60wh-3c-rechargeable-battery/
0.32 134.78 258.89 9.98 31.0 0.23 0.120 3.1 5000 33140 https://srikobatteries.com/product/sodium-ion-battery-33140-3-1v-10ah-31wh-12c-cylindrical-battery/
0.40 112.50 224.09 21.85 54.0 0.48 0.241 3.0 5000 46145 https://srikobatteries.com/product/sodium-ion-46145-3-0v-18ah-54wh-10c-rechargeable-battery/
0.20 122.22 231.09 43.70 220.0 1.8 0.952 3.2 5000 pack https://srikobatteries.com/product/sodium-ion-na-5c-70ah-220wh-battery/
C($/Wh) D(Wh/kg) D(Wh/L) P($) E(Wh) M(kg) Vol(L) V(V) C S URL(Lithium-ion)
0.23 252.00 761.77 2.85 12.6 0.05 0.017 3.6 300 18650 https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/samsung-35e
0.16 262.01 742.41 2.85 18.0 0.069 0.024 3.6 300 21700 https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/samsung-50e
O: outlay
D: density
P: price
E: energy
M: mass
Vol: volume
V: voltage
C: cycles
S: size
Note: 26700 is not the same as 27100, they are just what each site specializes in.
Comment: I think that it should have been 18065 instead of 18650 because then the last 3 digits could be length in mm, same for the others, but what do I know.
Edit: I forgot to add cycles. When considered, they drop the price of sodium-ion to roughly 5-10 times less than lithium-ion for the batteries shown here. O($/Wh) D(Wh/kg) D(Wh/L) P($) E(Wh) M(kg) Vol(L) V(V) C S URL(Lithium-ion)
0.31 236.17 671.08 3.4 11.1 0.047 0.017 3.7 1000 18650 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Wholesale-18650-Lithium-Battery-INR18650-3_1601503766893.html
0.36 222.00 671.08 3.99 11.1 0.05 0.017 3.7 800 18650 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-Selling-Factory-Price-INR18650-30Q_1601159662361.html
0.83 160.00 290.20 4 4.8 0.03 0.017 3.2 2000 18650 https://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-18650-Rechargeable-Cell-3.2V-1500-mAh-4.8Wh-7.5A-Rate.aspx
0.36 227.85 1088.24 6.4 18 0.079 0.017 3.2 3000 18650 https://www.goldencellpower.com/product-item/18650-1100mah-3-2v-lifepo4-cells/
0.36 222.78 1064.06 6.4 17.6 0.079 0.017 3.2 3000 18650 https://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-18650-Rechargeable-Cell-3.2V-2000-mAh-6.4Wh-6A-Rate.aspx
0.80 134.74 365.71 10.18 12.8 0.095 0.035 3.2 4000 26650 https://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-26650-Rechargeable-Cell-3.2V-4000-mAh-12.8Wh-12A-Rate.aspx
0.24 184.00 396.07 3.5 14.72 0.08 0.037 3.2 3000 26700 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/lithium-ion-battery-cell-26700-3_1601277009356.html
0.31 240.00 413.29 4.8 15.36 0.064 0.037 3.2 4000 26700 https://www.sunpowernewenergy.com/product/26700-high-rate-lifepo4-battery-45e/
0.31 160.00 128.28 4.8 15.36 0.096 0.120 3.2 4000 33140 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/High-Quality-LMFP-5AH-Cell-Lithium_1601161018743.html
0.28 256.41 167.03 5.6 20 0.078 0.120 3.2 5000 33140 https://www.evlithium.com/LiFePO4-Battery/33140-20ah-lifepo4-battery-cell.html
Edit: dangit, I made a mistake in my previous post. A($/Wh) and C($/Wh) were supposed to be O($/Wh) for outlay. I fixed this one to provide context.
brybell•3mo ago
dwd•3mo ago
They also don't need some "critical" minerals such as graphite, cobalt and nickel.
fart-fart-FART•3mo ago
stephenitis•3mo ago
dwd•3mo ago
As with the rare earth minerals, the supply of graphite, cobalt and nickel is vulnerable hence the designation as critical minerals by Western Governments.