Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.
NFS lock and unlock. GPS locator. Capacitance touchscreen controls. Hydraulic disc brakes.
Companion helmet with wirelessly connected brake lights, and noise cancelling(?!) speakers.
Why do we need to learn the same lessons over and over again?
The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice)
For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling.
These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson.
The helmet is very juicero tho
(Kind of amazed that wireless derailleurs became a thing. Replacing a simple mechanical device with complex tech requiring two batteries)
I wish I had the automatic shifting module for SF's hills, but it's a nice to have that probably isn't as useful elsewhere
Not for an e-bike it isn't. In fact, I'd say if you're not rocking hydraulic brakes on an e-bike, you're asking for a bad time. I know that most lower end e-bikes don't come with them standard, but to me, it's a necessary and immediate upgrade for safety.
[0] (overall specs indicate a lot of weight, Rivian are not proud enough of any lightweighting to even print the weight, and their autos are also very heavy, indicating a lack of lightweight engineering discipline in that shop which may carry over to their other mobility solutions)
The only kind of weird thing I see here is the idea the pedals aren't actually directly connected to the drive train, they just turn a generator.
gears with a chain is more energy efficient.
The bike cost nowhere near $4500 and certainly doesn't have any "smart" integration other than a holder for my phone, which I added myself for $13.
But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.
Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.
NFC, Near Field Communication.
That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing.
Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.
"activates and deactivates when the rider is nearby"
sounds iffy like that. I was riding a Forest bike yesterday where the user app and bike both have to connect to Forest's servers and it's kind of a pain.
The pedals are not connected to the chain or wheels, it's surely a legal dodge to pretend it's a pedelec not a motorbike.
like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)
Also to note, they are very much marketing it as a trail bike in addition to a commuter so it's not surprising they would spend a bit to optimize for ride quality and traction.
Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to engineer and build these wheel motors for reliability and longevity. They significanly increase the unsprung mass of the wheel which leads to increased wear on the hub components.
E-bikes can have the motors on the wheel (hub-drive) or on the pedal (mid-drive). This choice is largely related to how much you want your e-bike to really be a scooter or really be providing pedal assist. As a consequence hub-drive e-bikes typically have a throttle while mid-drive do not.
A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist rather than riding a scooter. It leads to a much smoother riding experience if your aim is to still be essentially bicycling but you'd like to get moving faster and not break a sweet even on the most extreme hills.
Of course. But the pedals on this thing aren't even connected to the drivetrain. So what is the benefit in this specific case?
It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced.
If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.
edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.
There's also a maximum power rating of 750 watts for all of these. I'm not sure where the "pedal by wire" feature is from a regulatory perspective, but to me this fits into either class 2 or 3 depending on what option you get.
> It also features a throttle good for 20mph where regulations allow.
That must mean they have a class 2 option.
Class 3 allows pedal assist up to 28 and throttle to 20
https://thecyclistchoice.com/resources/electric-bike-classes...
It would be nice to have the GPS automatically set the pedal assist max speed when riding on shared paths with pedestrians and people.
I have also seen road bikers on those same shared paths pedal faster than 20mph.
See how it just becomes a bicycle when it's discharged or broken? This is much, much closer to what we expected from the Segway.
If it is broken the pedals will just spin because there is no mechanical link between the pedals and the parts that make the vehicle move.
That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides.
Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.
Most serious bicyclists I know, some with wonderful bikes, still spent less on their bikes than the typical American spends getting the air conditioned seats option in their F-150.
True, but this bike is completely non-standard so sort of blows that. There isn't even a direct connection between the pedals and the wheels. If the electrical bits stop responding you don't even have a bike, you have a really awkward velocipede. Every other e-bike that I have ridden or seen is still a bike when there is no power.
Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow.
Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not.
In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention!
The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like:
> The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat.
Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye!
One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting!
A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).
This bike seems to have only a single major modular system, but it comprises such a massive part of the bike: there's a big stem-post that attaches to the drive unit. Being able to swap that stem-post out for other things allows for really big changes, imo. You could build some really cool really neat different top-sides atop this bike, with really weird cargo or kid shapes.
I would love to see smaller level modularity too. I'm really impressed by the Bronco, and how they've clearly worked very hard to make it a "car as a platform", opening up as much space as they can for aftermarket parts & 3d printing people to build everything from cup-holders/interior fixing to body-panels (dunno the best link for this, but for ex: https://thebronconation.com/more-bronco-modularity-fender-fl...). I see Rivian / Also tapping that energy here in a way that moves far beyond what bikes today offer.
There's usually some kind of screw mounts somewhere, different bikes with different geometries need lateral positioning & control & it feels like >50% of the time what comes with the rack doesn't quite work.
It looks like most of these bike seats assume the bike already has some kind of rack installed. If there's already two horizontal bars ready to go then yeah it should be pretty simple to install: the hard parts done.
I feel like this debate over bikes are modular / no they are not is kind of silly. There is some part swapping, and some affixment points, but these come with great inconsistency across bikes and parts. But much more so than that, it feels like there's such a limited of reconfigurability for most bikes. There's the same bike underneath whatever you do, and the number of serious affixment points strongly limits how you can build up.
OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.
It seems obviously true to typical racing or distance scenarios. And i notice the wind even at lower speeds on e-bikes in SF.
But between their quad scenario and what I imagine as the urban car replacement scenario it doesn't seem as obvious.
100kg rider at 15 kph = .24W-h kinetic energy. At this speed there is probably roughly 11N of air and rolling resistance, so the steady state power is about 3W-h per km. If you go 1km between stops, or more, the amount you can expect to gain by regeneration is extremely small. It could perhaps extend your range by 5%, generously.
If I'm understanding the math, maybe that scales the regenerative range extension % by your tolerance for pedaling?
If it's w.r.t. effect of low max power on low cumulative generation, I agree it does seem like a little silly to arbitrage your power generation this way. But maybe the tradeoff is worth it in some circumstances in their view?
Or maybe it's just a low cost addition as other commenters say.
I'm not sure which pressure sensor you mean, like in the brake lever? E-bikes with hydraulic brakes already have sensors for power cutoff (and in this case for brake lights).
Why existing bikes don't use it? Because you need software or a more complicated controller, and the amount of regenerated energy is indeed not that large.
Regen on the front wheel would be most effective - but then you've got two motors or a less-than-ideal front motor that adds unsprung weight and has similar traction issues during acceleration as the front unloads.
It's a shame - I think a lot of people want ebikes to work, but they're not as convenient as a pedal bike (especially not in small apartments) and usually they're too heavy to really use in blended pedaling/e-assist mode.
I don't see how this would be any different. Or, it's certainly not "moronic"
That combines with the heavy weight of an ebike, another 50lb+ of cargo in the saddlebags, plus my exceptionally fat ass means I burn through a pair of front brake pads about once a month if I'm running errands most days.
So the steepest roads in the world have small sections where the grade exceeds 30%; none maintain it or "average" 30%.
When I'm in my car the dash reads on the hills here between 12° all the way up to 16° on the switchback into the valley. The new market is up a 14° hill.
So closer to ~24% grade average maybe? It's damn steep is the point regardless.
Here in Seattle with all the hills it might
100 lbs would be unmanageable.
The point I really fell like I left out is that with that size and weight of the bike plus being able to haul 300lbs, the motor and battery combo is rated for 45 miles. Not once have I felt like I needed longer range. It's not that kind of bike. I use it for tooling around while shopping or leisure rides topping out at 35 miles. Even at 35 mile rides, by battery still has plenty remaining as I still heavily rely on my meat motor.
I suspect pedal-by-wire will only be slightly heavier since it doesn't need gears, but the range will probably be even worse.
800 watt hours for $4,500 is absurd too.
Absolutely not. Unless you have baby in a saddle and going 10mph
In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...).
This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.
Also, the "TM-B Reservation Token" smacks of egregious marketeering.
Still, this looks like a solid ebike.
Materials must be real strong to withstand all the torque forces without a rear triangle, right? Any other e-bikes like this?
It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.
There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist.
If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills.
With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.
I have a bike with an automatic transmission and it handles steep hills just fine.
But generally speaking, I would expect the bike at this price point to have an automatic transmission.
Critical features: 1. moderate weather protection 2. vastly improved crash protection 3. top speed above 50mph 4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer
I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips.
https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridicul...
https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-m...
Also, it's AI-generated. Zoom in on the right-most guy in the image. Garbage in, garbage out. Embarrassing garbage quality for an official site.
A was all curious about the "woman with 3 dogs kills", but was disappointed to find the dogs are alive. I just read the sentence wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXDP9WQe0io
A previous video "How is a bike tunnel this freak'n great" is about urbanism and cycling in Bergen, Norway and has repeated digs at people who say you can't have good cycling infrastructure unless it's sunny and tropical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCedclz03uI
And a previous video "Why Canadians can't bike in the winter (but Finnish people can)" about the city of Oulo, Finland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
And a previous video about Oslo, Norway, "The next great cycling city"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmp09Fd07oc
He used to work in tech, I think in ATI chip design consulting, and spent time lived in Sunnyville, California, where it was always room temperature and sunny outside - the best weather anyone could ask for - and everyone still drove everywhere all the time. He travelled short and long stay consulting visits all over the world for years, in Toronto, Sunnyville, Oxford, London, Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Taiwan, China, and it's those experiences which gave rise to his opinions about cities and that YouTube channel
I was asking for an electric motorcycle with a top speed of at least 50mph, intended to be used over the sort of distances that people would not use an e-bike or a bicycle for (in my case, like the 25mile/40km journey from my home into the nearest city).
I do actually ride my bike to/from the city sometimes, and probably the coldest I've ever been cycling (and I ride a lot) was on a winter morning doing this, when I underestimated the depth of the cold without direct sunshine.
Moving at powered speed, with little to zero effort, is extremely chilling (potentially even life-threatening).
So yes ... yes to better cycling infrastructure even inside cities with challenging winter conditions, but also yes to recognizing that not all two-wheeled transport fits that particular description.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_ri...
I just 3d printed protective covers for them last week when marketing turned their back on the new Bambu printer.
I have a big commute and in the (Canadian) winter my old 750Wh was sometimes not up to the task. So I went wildly over the top and built a huge cap battery. I never need to worry now
They get stolen anyway, know some guys it happened to.
It's actually cost me about another $500 in maintenance getting the various bits that pack up replaced but it's a good theft deterrent.
If I commuted via bicycle in an area with frequent larceny, I’d simply take it inside to my cubicle, which is surprisingly easy. Currently I live in a low larceny area so I simply leave it outside of the office, unlocked.
It's sad to see so much effort being put into a product that is utterly uncool. Maybe start with the design (cool) and then integrate the mechanics. This is how companies design cool cars.
I love that the popularity of motorcycling is taking off with better batteries, motors, and control systems!
It's motorcycling though :-)
I love ebikes and generally like what Rivian does, but in a very competitive market it's hard to see the appeal of this.
Eyyyyyyy
Because some designer wants to feel good about themselves, better than all who came before.
This "revolutionary design" does not offer any significant advantage over the existing systems for e-bikes. A regular e-bike without power is a just a regular bike. You can adapt a regular bike into an e-bike for < $600. Any run-of-the-mill mechanic can figure out how to work on a basic bike. This one will probably require some "certified Rivian expert" to work on it.
Only irrational neomania can justify being interested in this "revolution".
The bike won't fit any of that until there's hot swappable batteries sold everywhere, and when it's dead you'll be pushing it back home.
Also, 100 miles is a lot on a bike. I think they got rid of this design requirement by just making the range longer.
Maybe you pedal the generator on the kickstand for a minute to give it enough charge to operate the electronics, and then away you go working hard like on any other e-bike that's out of charge? I don't see why it couldn't move.
And if anyone said "lets ride motorbikes with pedestrians" they'd be looked at funny.
I'm seeing more near misses each week AND in 20 years I'll be old enough to feel real vulnerable...
and mass!
Some of these electric bikes are quite speedy - capable of mixing it up with flowing traffic. So classify them as being motorbikes.
If they can't go that fast, or are "assistive only" (require large fraction of rider pedal input up to a set speed) then legislatively they are a "normal bike".
The thing is, we already have the rules around each style of bike. It's just a classification thing.
Many electric bikes are masquerading and hoping no one looks too closely. So, just look closely. And hold actions responsible.
Yes, and people who are slower and more fragile and take longer to heal are more so than others.
"It features a new pedal-by-wire drivetrain called “DreamRide” developed in-house. The rider pedals a generator, which replenishes the battery,"
So uh, keep peddling?
Yes, the motion->electric->motion circuit is not as efficient as direct pedal but you are explicitly not stranded.
Not even napkin math, but ballpark I would think you're looking at having to pedal about 20-25% harder to accelerate the same rate compared to a chain, with no supplemental energy directed towards charging the battery (though I would assume al the energy goes through the power management system anyways).
However you get some gain in that you don't have to select a gear ratio, and that the electric motor provides torque efficiently at any rpm you can realistically expect on a bicycle. If it has an adaptive resistance level it will probably be more work (energy) but for many non-cyclists feel much more intuitive and simple
When you’re biking, it’s preferable to pedal in “safe” zones (protected bike lanes, trails etc.) while relying on the battery for eg intersections and when sharing the road with vehicles. With a regular bike you have to pedal harder precisely at these zones which makes it a little scary. You can also pedal on fairly flat ground/use all that energy to climb up a steep hill quickly without pedaling etc.
My government says the trigger (accelerator) is bad and made it illegal.
In usage, however, I feel WAY safer being able to accelerate (from standstill) through intersections. I once had a chain break at an inopportune moment while doing that - scary! Now my rear hub motor means there's no danger anymore.
Oh, and it’s a serious crime if I cause an accident and try to flee.
Edit: oh I see above there’s subtle confusion building over the thread that this is a new feature of e-bikes, as of this Rivian marketing. it is not.
Note that China, who doesn't have the same regulatory burdens we do, they got rid of pedal assisted e-bikes for their own market long ago because they make the unit more expensive and less functional (or you see pedals on some of them, but they are never used, most people use them with throttles only).
1. https://a2zcalculators.com/science-and-engineering-calculato...
Even a floor of 100W would rule out smaller/less athletic riders.
Even 50W is a fairly significant boost for casual riding.
You don't need to sustain 250W pedalling.
What is the end-to-end efficiency of the generator, electronics, and motor combination? If it's 75% efficient, then you need to pedal 33% harder than normal[1]. If it's 66% efficient, then you pedal 50% harder.
Unfortunately, I can't find real data, so those efficiency numbers are guesstimates. Electric motors and generators can be very efficient, and I would hope that they'd use efficient ones for an application like an ebike.
As a point of reference, pumped hydro can be 70-80% efficient[2], and that involves a motor, a generator, and mechanical losses. That's not an apples to apples comparison, though.
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[1] Where normal means a 100%-efficient link between pedals and wheel. Actual bike chains aren't, but they appear to be 95% or more.
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit...
Once I put myself onto the bike I don't care all that much whether it's 15lb or 50lb.
This is a really dumb thing to say; it makes absolutely no sense. ALso you typically don't "put yourself onto the bike" but rather pedal it.
I'm not talking about pedaling, I'm talking about sitting. Because now my weight combines with the bike. The difference between 215 and 250 pounds is not that impactful.
Edit: There are some differences in weight distribution, but I clearly don't mind those because they exist while the bike is powered too. The issue at hand is the pedaling, and that depends on total weight.
As in, if not for those problems you would keep riding and not push it.
So my response is that you should just fix the gearing (or buy one with good gearing), and 50lb isn't an issue for riding.
So both issues are resolved, and you could keep riding a normal design just fine. This means the design of the Rivian is a real detriment.
1: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... (312.5.c)
Bikes are simple for a reason, they're light for a reason, they are maintainable for a reason, their ergonomics have been refined over decades, and so on.
I don't think non-bike companies shouldn't have a crack, it's fun to see new takes on it all, but bikes have been "disrupted" already by a dozen different forms of transport, they stick around in their current form because it fits well into the gaps the other modes leave. There's no big new problems to solve with the bicycle aspect, just pop your cool drivetrain into a regular bike and you at least get to keep the broader market of cyclists as customers.
The bike comes with DRM that automatically tracks which location you're in and applies regulations to the controls? Fucking hell.
The only things this seems to have over an electric scooter is larger wheels, a seat, and a cargo rack. It's almost impossible to tell in a time-efficient way though because they really want you to watch their presentation and individually click on each "SEE MORE" button and read each little excerpt one at a time. I'm super annoyed by this website.
Even the most premium possible scooter costs almost $1,000 less than this - Apollo Phantom 2.0 Stellar is $3,649 right now, and goes like 50 MPH, has far less DRM, and so on. No cargo space though.
(https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer)
A classic Simpsons episode!
I suspect I'll be seeing these around here, soon.
It'd be interesting to see if/how e-bike laws would evolve if this trend gets bigger (ebikes are already big in big cities like NYC)
No one is going to do that. It's an electric motorcycle in disguise. Don't even play.
science fiction my good dude.
(I've never ridden any kind of e-bike so I don't really know how it works)
This is more akin to a hybrid car, who's gas engine could generate electricity, but in the case of this e-Bike from Rivian, why would you do that? The electric motor is significantly more powerful than a person's legs, outside of the Pro Peleton.
Watch anyone on a Class 3 ebike: they're not pedaling. The bicycle drivetrain is just there to get around regulations, like having a license.
Rivian isn't known for making hyper-efficient electric vehicles. Rivians are MANLY trucks made to do MANLY truck things, like go fast! and go through tires faster!
[1] Brussels.
They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.
That price tag and the way overhyped lead up to it's unveiling combined to kill any chance the Segway had. Dean's (RIP, I think) vision might have had a chance if it wasn't the same price as a lightly used new-to-me Kia Sephia.
At even half the $5000+ price it would have found a lot more adoption. Tourism companies still use the shit out of them and once they start dumping them, I bet they'll be the cool thing to have.
The best description I've seen of using it is "cycling without hills".
The fact that we use the same name for these and "low speed electric motorcycles" is... unfortunate.
The problem is that many other manufacturers have “selectable” class which really is meaningless and doesn’t really tell you what you are buying and often times is really close to a motorcycle. But unlike cars you can easily import bikes that don’t conform to the regulation so many don’t.
If I were buying a bike for my young child I would stick to class 1 or 2.
I think it's also a social issue right now, there's very little general information provided to bikers (ex - most people don't even know these classifications exist, and can't remember them if they do), and not a large enough chunk of the population is biking yet to get a general consensus on "acceptable" behavior.
Couple that with low enforcement, and it makes sense a fair number of people are just clueless.
---
Just simple things like "bike speed limit" signs on trails/paths would probably help a lot.
I have a class 3 ebike, and I'd still 100% prefer to ride it on a trail with a speed limit of 20mph instead of having trying to mingle with cars on even moderatly busy streets.
The laws should let bikers understand the desired behavior, and allow them to self-regulate.
Especially given that this isn't in the same risk category as larger vehicles (e-bikes are half the weight of mopeds, and 28mph is very different than 45)
Then give folks tickets. They're too useful to go away - we'll get it figured out.
My fear is that without it, regulatory arbitrage will turn every inch of land that doesn’t have a building into Death Race 2000. Cars are not allowed on sidewalks to protect friends? No problem - here’s an electric motorcycle disguised as a bicycle. Hi
Probably two reasons to avoid this. Practically, it's more expensive because not only do you have a 3kW motor but everything else must handle the increased demands. It just gets more expensive all around just for a niche case equivalent of "everyone needs a truck to carry 16 sheets of drywall and 12 2x4s".
The second is that regulators were reasonably pragmatic. Top speed, peak power, and weight are good proxies for safety, rather than having to regulate every aspect of a bike's operation like with cars. Bikes are spending most of their time on flat ground on city streets where huge power/torque are not just unnecessary, they're dangerous. Already plenty of e-bikes are going all out (governors are easily bypassed) on sidewalks and bike lanes where the others have 100W "motors". In my otherwise very civilized part of the world, every day I ride I almost get run over by assholes on full blown motorcycles speeding on the bike lane because it's faster. I have never, ever seen one get a fine. Nobody can do enforcement of safety at rider level especially for very lightly regulated and unregistered vehicles.
I would suggest that the only good reason to have a peak power limit in law on the engine is so that if you unlock it/chip it you can't blast off at 60mph. But at that point you're breaking the speed limit either way, so I'm still not convinced a peak power limit is reasonable.
I have a powered bike that limits the speed to the lawful limit, but the engine has 500w instead of 250w, meaning my bike is better at getting up hills than my wife's. I don't think this should be illegal, and if I want to pay for a stronger engine, that is reasonably up to me.
That nobody is enforcing the speed limit on bike lanes is an enforcement issue, and it doesn't get solved by having unnecessarily tangential laws. And I'm certainly not a "deregulate everything" person.
I think we've heard this blurb so many times it should be a joke to be ridiculed by now. It usually prefaces a story about some abusive, exploitative action.
> But at that point you're breaking the speed limit either way, so I'm still not convinced a peak power limit is reasonable.
That's why I said that enforcement at rider level is impossible. The burden to check if someone removed some governor is so high that it might as well not be regulated in any way. Or you heavily strengthen and give an even broader mandate to LEO, and I hear that's what everyone wants more of these days.
So the easy way around this is to regulate the manufacturing or sales. You limit the power of the motor, you implicitly limit how fast the bike can realistically go, and how much weight it can carry at speed. This makes things a little bit safer. If you need more, choose a different vehicle. You don't buy a Fiesta and then shout in the wind that it's not allowed to have 18 wheels and carry 35t.
> That nobody is enforcing the speed limit on bike lanes is an enforcement issue, and it doesn't get solved by having unnecessarily tangential laws
I get that you really want something but this isn't an argument. The laws aren't "tangential" they are very much on point, trying to keep a balance between usability and safety faced with practical reality. Not the wishy-washy "the market will handle it" or "I should get it because I want it and anyone stopping me is stupid". The law allows every kind of vehicle for every need, under the appropriate conditions. You just think your conditions for your needs come first. Some people ride like that so the "tangential laws" exist to protect others from them.
“The market handling it” is why there are hordes of cars with purposefully loud mufflers blasting past my house at many hours of the day. My state chose to make it illegal to build something like that but it’s perfectly legal to sell the parts. So the market did what the market does.
Amazon and Temu sell so much illegal and dangerous junk and no lawsuit changed this. People still get hurt or killed by battery fires, malfunctioning products, intoxication with all kinds of chemicals.
> followed by mandatory liability insurance
People complain that they have to wear a helmet. They won't be fine with mandatory liability insurance. The level of bike theft shows that bikes are notoriously untraceable, it's very hard or prohibitively expensive to enforce this.
> with insurers installing telemetry devices on an ebike
Raises costs, requires cloud services and connectivity, and the owner can still hack the antenna off or shield it and the bike is now permanently offline but with no way to detect that on the street.
You can say people "won't be fine with mandatory liability insurance". That's what it's "mandatory". If you get caught operating a vehicle without one, you might just well lose your vehicle and have it impounded on the spot, have to pay a hefty fine, and have to prove you have insurance before you're allowed to drive again.
Insurers can and do detect if your telemetry stops transmitting - for example, State Farm offers a substantial discount if you transmit telemetry. If you sign up for this and then yank the device out, they simply charge you a higher rate.
We also have things like "helmet laws". You can't (for example) operate a motorcycle in California without a helmet. If you do, you'll get pulled over and ticketed and are stuck being unable to ride it away until someone either brings you a ticket or you go for a nice long walk and get one yourself, with a high chance your bike gets impounded from the side of the road.
I don't know why the attitude persists that the government can't regulate things and enforce laws. They certainly can.
> I don't know why the attitude persists that the government can't regulate things and enforce laws. They certainly can.
Who said anything about government regulation? The latest part of the thread was about "the market" handling it, you yourself even said "with liability lawsuits", now you talk government regulation which is the opposite of that.
> Amazon and Temu aren't allowed to sell cars
Who said anything about cars? We're talking bicycles and other things people want to stay unregulated. They sell bad products and "the market" didn't handle it, not with lawsuits or regulation or enforcement. So many ebikes were catching fire in my complex while charging that the administration banned even storing ebikes in the underground parking or the individual storage units. The importer of the bikes (Amazon store?) was of course dissolved by that time.
> because we still regulate our cars somewhat
Who said anything about car regulations? That's exactly what people don't want with bicycles. Look at this discussion, people want to pretend even mopeds should still be called "just bikes" so they stay unregulated. The whole point of a bicycle is to be a simple unregulated vehicle with minimal capabilities. Not multi kilowatt motor vehicle that can carry heavy loads up a hill at speeds that most people barely cycle on the flat.
> You can't (for example) operate a motorcycle in California without a helmet.
Who said anything about motorcycles? You can operate a bicycle without a helmet because people weren't fine with mandatory helmet laws. Just like it will happen with "mandatory liability insurance and telemetry" for bikes. It might happen when we all live in a dystopia where everything you do is tracked, or for some bicycles that aren't really bicycles (mopeds and higher categories).
Whoever wants powerful motors or high carrying capacity should stop calling it "a bicycle" and call it a "moped" or "S-Pedelec". These already require insurance and a license plate. There are enough categories here [0] to cover all needs. Pretending everything on 2 wheels is a bicycle does cyclists a disservice and is like calling my car "an umbrella" so I'm allowed to take it everywhere with me.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_category#EU_classifica...
I don't particularly buy this. I think we've spent very little time and effort actually trying.
I also think that the lax enforcement as it currently stands is a pretty practical take... My read is that ebikes (even the class 3s) aren't actually out there killing people in crashes all that often.
Of the folks who are dying on bikes... the majority of the deaths are still happening due to collisions with motor vehicles. The second largest cause of death is the rider dying due to lack of helmet usage coupled with the higher speeds.
---
Basically - I agree we should improve social patterns for not being a dick on a fast bike in mixed-use spaces.
But if we're talking about actual benefit to safety... the problem is still the cars and not the bikes. At least for now (again - it's shifting because e-bikes are just useful as all get out).
To answer your question, the limit on motor power exists as a proxy for limiting the weight, speed, and acceleration of ebikes within safe limits, since having an ebike charging uphill at 20mph with 500lbs of payload would present actual safety risks. Trying to regulate payload/speed/slope combinations directly has practical problems (police officers don't really want to stop delivery drivers to weight their cargo), while regulating motor power is much simpler.
20 mph is a moderate speed for a road bike, however, you need to ride a lot to comfortably get to this speed and as a result, when you get there, your skills are adequate. A roadie riding 20+ mph is not going to enter a blind corner in a left lane or skid out trying to maneuver around some trash on the path. Why should we punish people who bike for exercise? It's not like e-bikers are going to wipe much less at 20 mph, your 100 lbs "sauron" without front brakes is going to skid even at 10 mph.
That means they don't have a throttle which is what a motorcycle or moped has.
You have to pedal to get an assist, this can either be a hub drive or a mid drive motor which have different characteristics (that's another story).
I think the "most" is overstated; I've been shopping for a year or two, and most of the ones I see have throttles.
Less popular among e-bike users are throttle-assisted and speed pedelec bikes.
Percentage of pedal-assisted e-bike users:
78.06% (Europe)
79.56% (United States)
81.17% (Asia)
References here: https://laka.co/gb/e-bike-market-statistics#:~:text=e%2Dbike...
My daily rider is a Trek Verve 2 (not electric) which Trek has a 'beauty shot'[1] of which features it without fenders. That said, mine has fenders because I don't like getting muddy water thrown up my back when I go through a puddle.
So my take here is that yes, this is a rather 'bougie' e-bike with pretentious design presentations, but if the engineers did their job correctly I expect you'll be able to equip it with fenders and other gear that you find essential on something you ride.
[1] https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_2...
https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seat...
This thing has 500W hub motors, no expensive derailleur, no chain to maintain, just tires and brakes. The hub motors have internal gearing. I love mine for getting around LA.
Many motorcycles have grunty torque, gearboxes, and no chain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaft_drive_motorcycl...
The BMW R 100GS Paris Dakar was the bee's knees for crossing the Tanimi Desert: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw-r100gs-pd-89...
Swings, roundabouts, and tangential from answering why "Torque, electric motors need gearboxes" doesn't answer the progenitor question "why chain".
I'm not sure I agree, but more when compared with belt drive and internally geared hub. But then again, I believe him that those are hard to repair when they fail (even if they are sturdy until then).
If you have elecreic hub motors there is no room for these between the hub motor and wheel.
Ergo, the existence of an off hub gearbox neither forces nor requires a chain to be used to transfer power.
The arguments for why use a chain Vs why use a shaft are not predicated on the existence of a gearbox.
They both have their pro's and cons, I've a few hundred thousand km's across the globe each with both shaft's and chain's.
Thank you for expressing your personal opinion though.
Chains are objectively more efficient than shaft drives -- it's not my personal opinion.
The main benefits to shaft drive are longevity and ease of maintenance.
That's objectively more efficient to those that travel a lot in harsh conditions.
Opinions are almost always personal.
The chain is probably to keep unsprung weight low. Hub motors are not the best for comfort.
I see how lower unsprung mass could be easier on the tyres but I have no idea how it could impact a rider who's isolated by full suspension.
I see the rivan thing has a toothed belt rather than chain.
Instead the pedals work as a throttle to set the speed of the motor and to charge the battery while you ride, reducing depletion speed. It also harvests energy when braking.
If the battery in this bike dies completely, or is removed, you cannot pedal to move it at all. The "toothed belt" (gates drive) connects to the motor, with no link to the pedals.
In theory this design could have been done with no chain/gates drive using hub motors and still work much the same, given all the pedals are really doing is turning a dynamo-contraption to charge a battery.
Pedelecs up to 25 kmh, motor only supports pedaling, max 250 watt
- Regulated like bicycles
S-Pedelecs up to 45 kmh, motor only supports pedaling; and e-bikes with a throttle
- Need helmet (specific ones, not any bike helmet)
- Need license plate
- Need insurance
- Need small motorcycle driving license (included in car license)
- Minimum age 16
- Can't use bike paths
and by a cheap bike I mean something like these "bikes":
https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Suspension-Motorcycle-Batter...
https://www.amazon.com/Qlife-Adults-1500W-Suspension-Motorcy...
I'm an everyday cyclist and when people ask me for recommendations on bike, I almost always recommend they look at traditional bike brands with e-bikes, rather than pure e-bike brands.
Traditional bike shop level bike brands typically have reputable Bosch or Bafang motors (preferably mid drive, not in the wheels hub)and computers, but the rest of the bike will be mostly standard bike brakes, wheel sizes, derailleurs, chains, hubs etc.
Bring one of those DTC e-bike brands into your local shop and there's probably a 50% chance they'll work on it. Good luck finding replacement parts or getting support from the company with no local prescence.
Look on /r/bikemechanics to see the horror show working on some of these bikes has become.
One of the great things about cycling is that almost anyone can learn to fix and maintain their bike. It's affordable and mostly standardized at this point
It's extremely accessible with YouTube Videos, the Park Tool Blue Book, and bike coops or workshops in most cities. Many local shops are happy to share knowledge with their customers.
The closer your e-bike is to a traditional bike, the better time you'll have in the long run.
For comparison, Seoul bike lanes allow pedal-assist bikes that are limited to 25 km/h and weigh no more than 30 kg (battery included), which seems pretty generous.
So they passed a bunch of strict laws which only apply to the city, but they aren't allowed to override state law on Class 1 and 2 bikes, so the law is very clear and simple for them and they mostly can't pass anything. State law allows localities to implement more restrictons on class 3, so it's a little bit murkier for class 3 bikes here.
The city ordinance is actually very difficult to understand, because it's broadly written, so you might think that some things are illegal because it's not totally clear where it's overridden by state law. It's clear as mud, not simple english and you have to be an attorney and do some research to understand it.
Promo pictures look cringe with metrosexuals riding them on a gravel road.
Cool.
Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes.
For this kind of money you can get a really nice eMTB like the Mith from UNNO which has 29 inch wheels, weighs 47 lbs (21.3kg) and is a much more capable bike with a 800Wh battery.
https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith
If you don't want classic transmission there are other eMTBs with a Pinion gearbox:
What's the problem with appealing to that crowd?
This thing seems totally overengineered by people who never use bikes
Like Rad Power Bikes? Though IIRC they're not doing too well at the moment.
I have a Juiced bike myself for the commute, it's quite nice.
One of the main user interface challenges with a pedal assist E bike is how to make the experience feel as intuitive as just pedaling a normal bicycle with a chain, but be able to embrace all of the UX freedom afforded by the "Pedal by wire" separation.
Consider that because there's an electric generator that the pedals are powering, the software can vary how much amperage is allowed to be generated and so provide variable force feedback as it were, and the software can set any relationship between the input (pedaling frequency, torque, rate of change etc.) and the behavior of the traction motor. I think that's the basis for actually a very exciting pedaling platform.
They also say in the article that the generator itself can create enough power to substantively move the motor, which is pretty awesome in my mind but I can totally understand how that feels circuitous.
I'm assuming that they will find buyers, either because it looks like a cool toy, or because rivian has fans ; but for all intents and purposes I don't think it's a good bike. It's probably a matter of preference, I'm on my bike whether it's sunny in the summer raining the rest of the year, and sometimes under the snow. It's a convenience. My commuter receives very little attention from me, it just works. I clean the chain just about every time I have to replace the brakes, and that's it for maintenance. Everything that makes it less sturdy is a danger that it will be ledd reliable and more if a hassler, that's why I wouldn't go with unproven solutions like that
An urban or commuting bike without one makes no sense whatsoever.
The customers aren't much smarter of course - they bought the bike! Anyone fool enough to walk around (twice) looking like that deserves ridicule.
You seem to have undermined your argument for selling mid guards as a default.
> Anyone fool enough to walk around (twice) looking like that deserves ridicule
Whatever floats your boat.
Can't you still run it downhill and regain energy? A lot of downhills in the city can't utilize the gravity all the way, instead having red lights just at the bottom of the hill
That just means you had stored potential energy, otherwise how are you going to get up the hill?
The efficiency gains of bicycle regen is not high enough and there is added drag of pulling a motor along if you are just pedalling normally. Most regard the trade-offs to be not worth it.
There is one Canadian ebike parts manufacturer that's pushing for regen, and their main reason for doing so is that it saves on brake pad wear.
And where is the heat dumped? Why does the physical resistance disappear when the battery is disconnected?
Of course there is the minor problem that the hub was mounted in the rear wheel so it's only good for gentle to moderate braking, but thankfully that is the vast majority of what you do.
Traditional dynamos are fairly small parasitic loads and not really comparable.
80% is really bad for a bicycle. A well-maintained bicycle drive chain is basically 100% efficient.
Lets be charitable and call it 90%, it's still going to charge the battery (which is described as a buffer), and that will have a max of 95%, discharge the battery, same, and power the motor, which has likely the same efficiency. You're at. 9.95.95*.9 = 73% efficiency at motor output. You're giving 27% to the gods of thermodynamics, unless you like the extra complex cardio you're getting, I don't really see the point. Regular bike transmissions are not free either, but they're closer to 95%.
Thinking about all that, I don't get why they didn't use a hub motor. Why adding a belt when you could have transmitted the power directly to the wheel?
Also presumably we should be comparing the efficiency to other ebikes not traditional bikes. I'm not sure how effective traditional ebikes are at integrating motor + human power together but I'd imagine there are some additional losses.
Need a Ferrari bicycle? How about a Ford, a BMW, a Mercedes or anything else?
Chances are that there is a bicycle out there with your favourite car logo slapped on the headtube. And none of them have sold, maybe with the exception of Peugeot, but they got out of bicycles too (albeit to license the brand). Note that Peugeot and scores of other auto companies started with bicycles before adding motors and wheels, so bicycles should be a core competency.
As for Rivian and their bicycle, they will sell a few to people that just want the bed of their truck to have a bicycle in it. Non-Rivian truck owners? They will take a pass.
But as a 'halo product', it should work. They can get the marketing they want from it.
Think of this an electric bike with optional pedal assist from the human. Efficiency is irrelevant if the range is large enough.
I don't hate it, but I'm curious to see what they think their target audience is.
Is it someone that wants to do a "last mile" from their car/train to office? Is it a car replacement? Is it a weekend farmers market family bike?
I feel like all of these require emphasis on different aspects. If it's a last mile commuter, it needs to be light / small so it can fit on a train or car trunk. Probably also needs to be light so it's luggable into/out of the trunk by an average person.
I guess for me, the most interesting ebike idea is that of a "last mile(s)". Something that I can easily pack in the trunk, and depending on my mood, allow me to park ~5-7 miles from work and cycle the rest of the way in. There are bits of my commute near my office that are often at a standstill, and ebiking would be significantly faster to skip those. This is much less of a commitment compared to doing the entire 20mi commute by bike.
It's not really intended for bicycleists, it's intended for rivian owners.
In my country, our govt is promoting e-cycles, and they are about ~ USD 1,000, after being imported from China. They have similar specs to these 'bikes' (range-wise) and I think they are better vehicles, both in price and in utility.
https://www.pave.gov.pk/vehicles
No need to add fake pedals or create a useless 'bike' frame when people are earning for a scooter/motorcycle. Create easier licensing/registration options and you will see adoption rise for the vehicles people truly want.
https://dualwheeljourney.com/mopeds/swedish-moped-class-1-an...
> get rid of the vestigial pedals.
Pedal-assisted is very much not a vestigial category, plenty of people want to get exercise and not just ride a scooter. On top of that they massively increase the range of the bicycle and the bicycle is still usable when the battery runs out.
> Good enough to make me think the $9,000 / €9,000 starting price isn’t as crazy as I first thought.
I think there may be a limited market at the higher price points given you can get a pretty good ebike for a fraction of that.
Car companies have been screwing up e-bikes for longer than you think
https://electrek.co/2024/04/02/car-companies-have-been-screw...
[1] https://www.cixi.life/pers-technology
If the pedals are going into a generator with fancy software to emulate the feel of a bike, there's nothing stopping the bike from going into "stationary mode" and acting as an exercise bike. This thing even had a screen on it, so you could do workouts like a peloton.
Then there's the storage aspect -- many people already have (or want) to allocate space to an exercise bike. It would pretty compelling that was also the parking space for your bike-bike.
Then there's the added benefit that your workout is charging the battery. Imagine biking to a park on low charge, doing a stationary workout, and then having enough battery left to bike home with full assist.
2. there are rides I do where I am going for the exercise. There are potential rides I want to do that I can't because I can't afford to be covered in sweat when I arrive. I dont' necessarily want to have TWO bikes or maybe I dont' mind getting a workout on the way home where I can promptly take a shower.
They never really intend for you to turn the pedals. It is a regulatory thing.
ZeroGravitas•3mo ago