So if the myth is simply "we are fat because we don't exercise more", agreed. But the effectiveness of the new drugs is already enough to underline that point pretty heavily.
It seems that the idea really getting flirted with here is that the kind of exercise you have to do to lose weight is hard. And we seem to make it harder by loading it in such a way that people that do a crap job out there running think they "must not be a runner." Statistically, nobody is a runner on their first few years. It takes time. And is hard. Just like a lot of other skills.
This is true for the self control it takes to not lay in bed with your phone scrolling. Once you have built that habit, it is flat out hard to kick for a lot of us. It isn't that you are just missing that one trick to make it work. It is a type of hard work.
The people who I know personally who move physically a lot ... like it. They need additional self control to skip the sport session and go clean the house. They either found activity that they fall in love with, the sport doubles as social outlet for them or they made it pleasant by tweaking how it is done.
> Statistically, nobody is a runner on their first few years. It takes time. And is hard.
It does not have to be. The first beginner period of a sport if normally the most pleasant one - you are getting quick improvements at first. Unless of course you go all hard to yourself and let all the motivation being eaten by guilt that you can run only for 4km instead of 15km yet.
Or, you dont have to run which is indeed inherently boring for quite a lot of people. You can roller skate instead. You can go for very long walk spending 2h listening to podcasts and shows.
Note that you can build a ramp up process such that you don't immediately punish yourself for not being good at something. Essentially the early levels of any video game. But, that is the point. Later levels are harder. By definition. But early levels are probably hard for beginners, as well. The challenge is part of the point.
The exact same thing goes for the early periods of a sport. Just running across the field is surprisingly hard for beginners. In ways that you flat out don't remember once you are proficient at it.
Including as a beginner you domt have to push yourself uncomfortably hard unless ypu actually want to. Especially as a beginner, you will get improvements and benefit from just dabbling in it.
And further agreed that you don't have to push to uncomfortably hard. I would emphasize that it is almost certainly some level of discomfort for everyone, though.
A great point to expand on here is the challenge, and huge benefits of finding activities we love. Sometimes it might be an obscure sport that is hard to discover or awkward to find locally, but when we find the activity we love to do great things happen, not just weight loss.
It just goes to show what a big influence baseline appetite and food choices make because I find it really hard to eat that much and always wonder how people manage it in just three meals
The best approach I've been able to follow has been protein shakes with body building diets.
Julian from HN has a great guide on this: https://www.julian.com/guide/muscle/intro
90 minutes of extra walking is a lot of time to offset a snack that could be eaten in 1 minute.
I also 100% think that your offset point is a big part of it. 90 minutes walking the dog outside is doubly beneficial because you are not snacking during the time.
I think it's a fair amount. I try hit 10000 steps a day, go to the gym, do occasional runs.
I should be clear. It isn't that I don't think 500 is enough to make a difference. I legit didn't know if it was a lot of extra calories to burn.
I've been walking my kids from the bus stop lately, and my exercise thing is convinced I'm getting about 600 calories in from that. (To be clear, I run to the bus stop, and then walk them back. Two trips, due to different drop off times.) I assumed I also need to do other work on top of that.
i don't eat one day a week when i want to lose weight. the next day i pay attention to eat slowly.
and i do moderate exercise simply to keep the fluids pumping in my body.
(precondition being that when you eat all days of the week your weight remains more or less stable, including exercise)
... is a pseudoscientific myth.
Not if you exercise
> osing weight is easy, not regaining it is a challenge in adapting your body set point
Body set points are BS, its hard because people mostly just lose water weight and/or go back to old habits
when you're miserable and need a dopamine hit, food is often the only option.
made worse by highly addictive, heavily marketed, "bliss point" sorts of foods.
1) weight managemennt is 100% solved process
2) that process is trivial for some or borderline impossible for some depending on genetic of enviroment factors IN BOTH DIRECTIONs, most of attention is just fixated on weight loss
The problem is that physical activity is unnatural and not intuitive. Biology is about saving energy, not spending it to keep everything healthy.
Bad mental health leads me to do less physical activity. Bad mental health also makes physical activity more difficult and painful.
Very wrong way to put it
All in all, it's not bad for something you almost get for "free".
But you can also choose to enjoy life, get fat (in moderation) and die a bit earlier. As far as I'm concerned that also a valid choice, depends on what you want from life...
physical activity is unnatural, because species are not expected to exercise for their health, since they already exercise naturally
I suppose exercise would cause me to naturally eat more long term to make up for lost energy, but perhaps only if my body can't make up that energy from sugar stores.
As for why eating doesn't make me hungry short term - I suppose exercising doesn't empty your stomach, which is what triggers hunger?
This is a ton of speculation.
it's pretty fun.
just gotta bring a change of clothes
A few other people have done the same feat or tried to: 5,000 or 10,000 calories challenge.
I don’t have the time to outrun a large blizzard (1300 calories) as a 90min session usually burns 700-900 calories according to my watch. I don’t feel like doing two sessions per day which is what Jay Cutler said he would do when cutting for Mr. Olympia. I think if I did, I wouldn’t be able to maintain it.
colechristensen•3mo ago
One, you absolutely can "outrun" a diet. If you've known anyone a little bit too much into fitness then you've known someone who has struggled to eat enough to maintain and build weight.
I had a friend who would drink a gallon of whole milk a day to maintain weight because he did so much at the gym.
I'm not saying it's healthy, but saying it isn't possible to exercise so much it's difficult to keep weight on is stupid.
Any beyond this, with tiny homes in dense neighborhoods and social norms that require parents to literally be watching their children 24/7 usually in their tiny home... yeah... the children are fat and depressed.
Lock kids in cages their entire lives and they have emotional problems and weight problems. Then you talk about physical activity like it's "training" and something that has to be scheduled and measured and doled out in just the right doses.
Normalize children having safe space to be by themselves outside in the world without constant surveillance and maybe they won't have so many dopamine addiction social media problems and obesity.
DangitBobby•3mo ago
And in the US, a bunch of the food that's convenient to buy and eat is "hyperpalatable". You're going to be really hard pressed to lose and keep weight off without deliberately adjusting your diet to support it.
emptyfile•3mo ago
10 miles per day would be more appropriate for someone aiming for a marathon.
If you eat real food and not "frapachino" (whatever that is) it can be pretty hard to eat enough food to keep your weight, without stomach issues.
No, I don't run that much. But many people do even more.
DangitBobby•3mo ago
appreciatorBus•3mo ago
As for your swipe at people in cities, I don’t know what to say - the fastest way to lower the amount of “diet outrunning” you and your kids do, is to move to a place where every daily activity requires a car and because everyone drives everywhere all the time, it’s not safe to let your kids roam.
colechristensen•3mo ago
Let's not move goalposts and continue to argue.
I'm responding to the title and the article.
>Just because it’s possible
So I'm right and you'd like to change the stakes so you can continue to argue the incorrect point of the author. Just stop. It's possible, it's not a myth, the author's thesis being basically incorrect invalidates the rest of the rambling post, try again next time.
watwut•3mo ago
nawgz•3mo ago
I'm not trying to strawman here, but I've never met a person like that who was ever overweight at any point in their life.
It seems pretty obvious to me that saying "some people can't eat enough to put on weight / get fat" is a distinct thing from saying "someone who cannot stop putting on weight / getting fatter will almost never be able to lose the weight without adjusting their diet". Do you agree or am I missing something?
colechristensen•3mo ago
More or less anyone can get to the point of being active enough where their body's ability to absorb calories is a limiting factor. It's not genetic or "some people" kind of thing, everybody has this limit and can hit it and people who are really excited about exercise and do a tremendous amount of it have to have strategies about how to get enough calories in their body on a day to day basis.
It's a lot of activity to get to this point, but some folks have magical thinking about eating.
Anyone absent a significant disability can be active enough to lose weight regardless of diet.
I'm not saying the "go insane and spend most of your free time exercising" is the best course of action, but far too many people have magical thoughts about changing diet or changing activity levels being ineffective for changing body composition.
Getting sat down in a doctors office and being told to do this isn't particularly effective, but that's different from actually doing it being effective.
Ferret7446•3mo ago
That depends on what "calories" you're consuming (as I responded to another comment, calories are not just calories). If you're getting calories through animal fat, then indeed absorption is a limiting factor. If you're chugging pure glucose/sucrose dissolved in water, then that limit is significantly higher, and you start hitting the physical limit of how much liquid volume can physically move through your body without it being a torture method.
Which actually leads to the primary cause of the obesity epidemic: the prevalence of sugar, and particularly in forms that get directly absorbed into the body.
rkomorn•3mo ago
Yes. Like multiple hours a day lot. That's why it's a "myth". It takes an amount of time, effort, and focus, that isn't particularly reasonable for I'd say almost all people.
Fundamentally, I agree with you that it's possible: I pretty much did it myself with ~12 hours of hard cycling a week, but I just think your take is wrong because it basically boils down to nitpicking "myth".
colechristensen•3mo ago
People in these threads are arguing aggressively this "myth" is not at all possible when the truth is lots of people experience it, including yourself.
Let's not dilute the meaning of the word "myth" to mean "its somewhat difficult".
A unicorn is a mythical creature from fairy tales, this doesn't mean the same thing as "the zoo with a unicorn exhibit is a few hours away and pretty expensive".
This isn't some nitpick of a minor detail better described with slightly different wording. It's people passionately arguing a common experience is impossible.
rkomorn•3mo ago
Go ahead and die on this hill if you want but you're doing it alone and without convincing anyone you're fighting the right crusade.
lucyjojo•3mo ago
fasting is simply way better and easier.
for many folks exercising is good to get healthy, not to lose weight.
paulddraper•3mo ago
Like a lot. Like professional athlete level.
Running 50 miles per week is a ton, easily top 1% activity level.
And all you incrementally need is a large slice of pizza, a coke, and a couple scoops of ice cream to make up for it.
dwohnitmok•3mo ago
This is an extremely common story for anyone who does through hiking on the Appalachian Trail (or Pacific Crest Trail, Continental Divide Trail, etc.). Quite a lot of people start overweight (although I have no idea what the percentage looks like). Almost everyone ends up losing a very significant amount of weight along the way. It is very difficult to stay overweight on the trail. People are intentionally choosing the absolute most calorie-dense food they possibly can, gorging themselves at every opportunity, consistently eating integer multiples of the standard recommended caloric intake, and are still losing large amounts of weight.
This is definitely an outlier case though.
paulddraper•3mo ago
And despite their choices of calorie-dense foods,
> gorging themselves at every opportunity
is a meaningful qualifier. Carrying your food will lead to restriction, naturally.
dwohnitmok•3mo ago
Eh. Yes, but people on the trail are still regularly eating > 6000 calories a day. If you talk with folks, the limit is often satiety even when not in town (people often simply cannot eat enough calories without feeling sick if they don't pace their eating accordingly), not pack capacity.
plorkyeran•3mo ago
gopalv•3mo ago
That honestly might be an absorption issue, not an intake issue - you can hit aerobic limits enough for your body to skip digesting stuff & just shove protein directly out of the stomach instead of bothering to break it down.
My experience with this was a brief high altitude climb above 5km in the sky, where eating eggs & ramen stopped working and only glucon-d kept me out of it.
The way I like to think of it is that the fat in your body can be eaten or drank, but needs to be breathed out as CO2 to leave it.
The rate at which you can put it in and the rate of letting it go are completely different.
chucksta•3mo ago
preommr•3mo ago
That's around 2.4k calories.
That's like three slices of costco pizza and a large coke. I can do that like 3-4 times and I am not even that fat.
And that's like half to a third of the absolute peak. Like the rock who basicaly works out all day, eats 5-7k calories.
The point is there are people that are eating large fries and triple thick milkshakes as snacks driving from place to place because it makes them feel happy instead of just eating to feel full. And you just can't outrun that.
lovich•3mo ago
3-4 times that would be 7200-9600 calories a day, already more than your example of the Rock.
Regardless
> The point is there are people that are eating large fries and triple thick milkshakes as snacks driving from place to place because it makes them feel happy instead of just eating to feel full. And you just can't outrun that.
Yes, if you eat more calories than you expend, because you spend your time eating while driving, instead of exercising, you wont expend more calories than you consume.
That doesn't change the fact that a human can exercise enough that they have difficulty maintaining weight even after eating significantly more calories than necessary for normal maintenance weight.
Nothing about the human metabolism circumvents thermodynamics
lan321•3mo ago
With proper diet I'm pretty sure the limit would be like 160kg for a healthy (TBD) body. Strongmen, when I watched regularly, were 160-185kg, with somewhat unhealthy bodies. If you eat junk, that limit comes lower since you can't exercise as efficiently. If you work 40hrs a week, that limit goes down further, since you can't live in the gym and hospital/sport clinic.
Of course, realistically, the sweet spot is IMO in the middle. Don't replace water with blended ice cream but also don't live in the gym or focus too much on it. Dry scooping teacups of some sketchy preworkout called "eXTREME PsYcHo SUPREME ViOlEnCe" with a bunch of other sketchy pills that make your third leg point at people all day and make your skin itch probably isn't worth it.
weird-eye-issue•3mo ago
You literally can. You just need to burn more calories than you take in. It would be difficult but not impossible and is simple math and thermodynamics.
ehnto•3mo ago
Yes, if you spend energy, it has to come from somewhere, but it's only in really specific scenarios that it comes from fat. No one is measuring how much they actually burn either, so we are all just theory crafting that someone burnt X and put in Y so they should be losing fat stores. Maybe they burned Y from blood sugar, super efficient, before it was stored into fat, great. Or maybe they stored it as fat overnight, and they are burning 98% of their breakfast from bloodsugar and only 2% from fat stores. Some people's bodies will have them completely tired out before they even hit their fat, that's a lack of fitness not a caloric deficit.
In general yeah, thermodynamics wins, but the details do matter.
weird-eye-issue•3mo ago
Yes, the short-term details can vary — sometimes you’re burning glycogen, sometimes fat — but over weeks and months, a sustained calorie deficit always results in weight loss. The body doesn’t magically create energy out of thin air because its “efficiency” fluctuates. You can argue that diet composition and hormones affect how easy it is to maintain that deficit, but not the fundamental physics behind it.
So while you’re right that biology is messy in the short term, thermodynamics still wins every single time when you zoom out.
It doesn't matter what source you are burning your energy from at any given time for long term weight. Let's say you eat a bunch of carbs and then you go for a run, well you're probably going to burn those carbs off first (depending on how hard you run and other factors). Which according to you doesn't matter since it's not burning stored fat. But if you didn't go for that run then those carbs would turn into fat later.... And if you go for a really long run (or you take it easier) then you will start burning the stored fat. But either way it doesn't actually matter because calories in / calories out still is the determining factor.
lucyjojo•3mo ago
the human body is not a linear system. it's markedly self-regulated and non-linear, and things can get pretty bad pretty quick.
weird-eye-issue•3mo ago
ehnto•3mo ago
That's why it's a frustrating reduction of the problem, the knowledge inbetween helps us make good decisions that involve a lot more than just the physics of the problem.
For someone I know gets it I can just say "eat less than you move" and that is the whole fitness plan, makes sense, but that's because they are filling in all the details for me. When to eat, what to eat, how much to eat, how much and when to move etc etc.
weird-eye-issue•3mo ago
But there are people arguing about the underlying concept of calories in/out being wrong which is just silly
> thermodynamics is not something to base your diet and exercise plan on
Except it literally is. You can use it to figure out exactly how much weight you'll gain/lose over the long term if you track things properly
ehnto•3mo ago
weird-eye-issue•3mo ago
seec•3mo ago
I think people refuse to accept the truth because they feel like it should be a one-time thing when in fact it's a lifelong discipline. Some seems to have it easier but that's pretty much true of everything, people aren't equal in self-control and I think the constant propaganda about "equality" just mess with their heads.
ehnto•3mo ago
If it helps you understand my point of view, I have been strength and fitness training for 15 years, this isn't a matter of lack of discipline. I understand the human aspect of the problem. People don't learn about the thermodynamic aspect and suddenly it all works out for them, it doesn't help.
seec•3mo ago
Are you suggesting that I advocate for people going through a thermodynamics class so they "get it"? Traditional education isn't very effective even for some trivial matters so I wouldn't dare to propose that. As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of people cannot learn much of complex science and there is nothing wrong with that.
And I wouldn't advise learning about thermodynamics just to solve a diet/exercice balance problem. In fact, I do the opposite. I tell people interested in the matter about various strategies they can use to control their caloric input and other strategies/motivations they can use to get a minimum of exercice.
But that's largely irrelevant, that's not the point. The problem is the various gurus who spit pseudo-science on the matter, pretending that CiCo isn't a thing and pointing the finger at various other things (sometimes with a sprinkle of truth to make things confusing).
There are many nuances in nutrition but if you don't get the basics right, nothing good can happen. And the gist of the matter is that every human needs to find a strategy that works for him to control his caloric input in relation to his energy expenditure.
One way to do this that is extremely effective is to build an intuition on how many calories most common foods are "worth" but also how much various activities/exercices spend. It takes effort but it is pretty simple and once people have the intuition on the matter they can more easily regulate the intake or exercice more, depending on what's easier/more successful for them. It doesn't necessarily solve some psychological disorders (like addictions and compulsive eating to regulate emotional state) but at least it gives a "roadmap" and a pretty accurate picture on how/why.
I have no idea what you are trying to say but it really isn't that complex of a problem. Humans being what they are make it more complicated than it needs to be.
solatic•3mo ago
There's a big difference between someone who feels satiated too quickly and someone who has a lot of difficulty feeling satiated. It has nothing to do with how much exercise someone gets. It's also much more difficult to eat large quantities of clean calories (for putting on muscle) compared to eating large quantities of dirty calories (putting on fat).
watwut•3mo ago
Calories are calories, neither dirty or clean.
yetihehe•3mo ago
Ferret7446•3mo ago
It's far easier to instead talk about mass, because one gram is indeed one gram, until humans evolve anti-matter producing organs. If you eat X and excrete Y, your body mass will change by X-Y. If you want to lose 1 kg, you will have to exhale 0.8 kg [1] of carbon atoms (you breath in O2 and exhale CO2).
[1]: There are a lot of different "calorie" molecules in your body, but generally all of them are some combination of C, H, O, which turns into CO2 and H2O at roughly 4:1 ratio by mass. So 80% is lost via exhaling C, and the H2O gets processed by your body normally, and is generally lost as urine or sweat, unless you're dehydrated.
esseph•3mo ago
You can absolutely burn more calories that you take in, especially if stressed and not eating right. Or if simply... overtraining because of various psychological issues. Most people are not overtraining, nor are they in combat. Most.
sa46•3mo ago
Anecdotally, I lost 26 lbs in Ranger School.
esseph•3mo ago
sa46•3mo ago
grebc•3mo ago
red-iron-pine•3mo ago
paulddraper•3mo ago
It’s not stupid. It’s true.
Simple math, exercise does not burn “that many” calories.
Diet, hormones, and genetics have far larger effects than exercise, relatively speaking.
(Exercise is A+ fantastic for a number of reasons. But a secondary mechanism for weight control.)
thefz•3mo ago
I also know runners that purposely eat at severe deficit to lose muscle mass and be lighter. Which is idiotic, like wanting to lose brain cells to win a chess competition.
lucyjojo•3mo ago
endurance running is about efficiency, not raw power output. it would make sense that you would aim for a strong cardiovascular system, strong digestive system, and a limited amount of very efficient muscles.
looking at pro runners they're all kinda skinny. they optimized their body for the distance.