2. I would support because I like and use Rust but only if I have guarantees that the money will be spend only on developers who are selected merely by technical contributions and not based on political beliefs, gender, race, etc. And unfortunately from what I’ve heard the Rust community is one of the snowflakiest communities on the internet. I don’t want to fund that.
People who were happy with Rust didn't have same need to criticise Zig in online spaces as Rust is the established player in the C alternatives space. (Though Rust is on the other side when compared to C once you expand the space to "all low level programming languages").
Also for people who don't care about the space at all, Rust has had years of exposure to promote fatigue, while Zig hasn't (yet).
EDIT: I hadn't fully gone through the comment section on this one yet and yikes it's worse about it than normal.
LucidLynx•2h ago
* A programming language simpler than C++...
* That does not change so much accross time (maybe the biggest lie here)...
* With great design changes and adoption (it was before async/await, obviously)...
* Abstracted from big companies (again a lie, as Amazon hires most of the heads of the Rust programming language now)...
* With a great non-political community (actually, this is the biggest lie of all).
To me, it is a mess.
weird_trousers•2h ago
The fact that most well-known Rust crates are becoming huge bloat are becoming a problem to me, which is something that has been critized years again by the community itself.
As an example, I still do not understand why simple HTTP crates require more than 50 to 70 dependencies to execute a simple GET call...
MisterTea•1h ago
This is what you get with package managers.
nixpulvis•1h ago
vacuity•1h ago
steveklabnik•56m ago
vacuity•42m ago
steveklabnik•28m ago
Ygg2•50m ago
It's just it's not frequent.
There is very few things that need to be in the standard library. I only ever miss chrono or equivalent not being in std.
nixpulvis•37m ago
Then there are things like serialization and logging, which I like the idea of having promoted crates which are essentially just better advertised for newcomers. (Maybe included in the distribution already in some way).
burntsushi•28m ago
Ygg2•12m ago
aw1621107•21m ago
Looking at ureq [0], for example, its direct non-build/non-dev dependencies are (counting duplicates):
- base64
- flate2 (4 transitive dependencies)
- log
- percent-encoding
- rustls (26 transitive dependencies)
- rustls-pki-types (1 transitive dependency)
- ureq-proto (7 transitive dependencies)
- utf-8
- webpki-roots (2 transitive dependencies)
The vast majority of the raw dependency count comes from Rustls and related crates, and I'd imagine reimplementing a TLS stack would be somewhat out of scope for an HTTP crate. I'm not sure there's much room for substantial reductions in dependency count otherwise.
[0]: https://github.com/algesten/ureq
escobar_west•20m ago
Insisting that you should depend on code which itself has no dependencies is a bit hypocritical if you ask me. If you want a simple HTTP crate that doesn't have dependencies, you should follow your own philosophy of not using other crates and write it yourself.
steveklabnik•2h ago
LucidLynx•2h ago
For example, I remember talking that with you at the Rust Fest 2017, in Zurich actually, especially about the *very early version* of Async/Await.
It is ok for the community to move on different directions than the first one, and I don't blame any of you for that.
steveklabnik•58m ago
> It is ok for the community to move on different directions than the first one
I agree, I just disagree with your characterization of "the first one." There were differences between the original Rust and what shipped, but almost none of it has to do with what you've said. In 2012-2013, Rust very explicitly changed a lot across time, and now it certainly does not. Async/await drove a lot of that adoption. Rust was always "political", even before 2012.
ratmice•2h ago
I recall the opposite, that the rust language (before the foundation) position was that being apolitical was a political stance. This is not the exact message I remember https://x.com/rustlang/status/1267519582505512960 and also can't realistically cover the entire community at large, as if that even has a single political stance.
jdright•35m ago
johnisgood•2h ago
That made me chuckle because both are quite the behemoths, as I have previously said. If they promised this, it was a lie indeed.
afdbcreid•1h ago
doyougnu•1h ago
ekropotin•1h ago
johnisgood•1h ago
vacuity•1h ago
steveklabnik•55m ago
ekropotin•1h ago
oli-obk•2h ago
01HNNWZ0MV43FF•2h ago
vacuity•1h ago
munificent•2h ago
"Non-political community" is an oxymoron, like "non-aquatic lake". Politics is the verb that communities do.
Certhas•1h ago
I think there is a reasonable argument that the default for a community with technical goals should be to accept social status quo conventions unless they conflict with the communities technical goals. But if the social default is "girls don't code and queers should hide" there is a reasonable counterargument that these conflict with the goal of making the technology (and community) available to everyone.
philipallstar•53m ago
Queers should hide definitely isn't any social default unless the code is exclusively developed in Gaza. "Do what you like but please stick to technical considerations" isn't "you need to hide".
echelon•1h ago
No it's not.
I'm an LGBT person with a trans partner and I find many codes of conduct to be chastising and purposefully finger pointing to conservative people.
A lot of them are basically, "your religious teachings or cultural upbringing aren't welcome here"
I don't agree with religious texts, but that's what you're wagging in their face with some of the CoCs.
Leave it at "don't be an asshole". It's that simple.
The current political climate, I feel, is a direct reaction to this.
A politically neutral space wouldn't permit religious people to harass trans or LGBT people, but it also wouldn't give anyone latitude to throw stones the other way either.
CoCs are "you're not welcome here at all".
Another thing: you always see language and project logos modified to bear the rainbow, trans, and BLM colors. You never see anything supporting Asians, white people, men, or Christians. If you did this, you would be called out as a racist. Which is so ironic.
Let's just get along and work together. Maybe we'll find more agreements amongst ourselves that way instead of trying to divide everyone into camps.
Some progressives are going to get very pissed off at this comment, but I grew up and live in the South. You can (and often must) work with people you don't agree with. It's not impossible to be friends either. You might wind up changing their mind, and they might wind up making you more tolerant as well.
JoshTriplett•1h ago
Life's for too short to force people to do this, and ideally we should make it as feasible as possible for as many people as possible to never have to do this.
pessimizer•1h ago
I like some people. Everybody else I work with if they're willing to work with me. Saying that we all have to agree with each other is basically giving up on the political project entirely, and going back to strongman rulers who organize by demanding conformity. Very relevant in these times.
> we should make it as feasible as possible for as many people as possible to never have to do this.
No, we should make it impossible to avoid so people can't sneak into adulthood without being properly socialized.
abenga•1h ago
JoshTriplett•59m ago
echelon•42m ago
The best defense against polarization is a strong and cohesive middle ground.
If you pull to far in the other way, all the bonds break. And it's a race for each interest group to seize power, rather than having some intermediating force that serves as a buffer.
Again: look at the political climate. It's a reaction. The pendulum is swinging harder and harder because we've given up on the middle ground.
Most of the people you hate (and you do seem to dislike them at least a little bit) have honestly never had an LGBT friend. Imagine if they did how that might change them.
Instead they hear voices from the LGBT community that want to outlaw them and their way of life. That's pretty hostile. And definitely is going to be met with the same attitude you're giving them.
I'm LGBT and I have many conservative friends. They're more apt to come around to it than you believe. You're shutting down any conversation before it can even happen.
vacuity•25m ago
Oftentimes, the voices are outside.
I think you're somewhat optimistic, and "the middle ground" is not a magical place. It's easy to fall into a false sense of security that comes from making (likely valid) criticisms of caricatured groups. Middle ground should not be sought for its own sake, or else it becomes useless (akin to Goodhart's law; roughly "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"). People should embrace a diversity of values, but the burden is to stay true to a set of values and push for the truth.
Oper_52•39m ago
What does this mean? Are you talking about people who openly support actual murder? Almost everyone is opposed to that, of course.
vacuity•47m ago
No matter the person, it's really disappointing that we're still entrenched in the mentalities of tribalism, anti-intellectualism, "if you're not with us, you're against us", "an eye for an eye", "someone hurt me, so I'm going to hurt someone", and so on. And by "person", that includes me.
The Earth politics patch really can't come soon enough. How much do we pay the devs, again?
clipsy•33m ago
Could you point out a code of conduct -- preferably from a large, well known project -- that reads this way in your opinion?
BoredPositron•51m ago