I think the other thing that's perhaps missing is that some companies have so much momentum (with thousands of people) that it probably doesn't matter when they lose people. The company will continue to thrive because there is demand for the product.
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
This strikes me as 1000% accurate from my work experience. I see people who do amazing work but get unrecognized and then move on while other people do mediocre work but put a huge effort into self-promotion and end up being promoted despite the work not being great... The reorgs also seem like a way to kneecap the employees and lower expectations.
Actually in most companies, no ones watching whats happening, no ones watching who performs, who slacks, or anything for that matter.
Companies are basically a kind of a loosely assembled random crowd, where no one cares a thing about anything. In this kind of a set up both hardwork and laziness go unnoticed, which is why a persistent level of mediocrity is all pervasive. People do the bare minimum needed to keep lights on.
Getting rewards, or not getting punished in this kind of set up, largely depends on who you know, how they view you and what they are willing to do for you.
I used to be a hard-working high-performer, but then I understood that because of numerous management problems that are beyond my control, the reward is very loosely correlated with my efforts, and given an existing job contract, the best way to maximize the reward/effort ratio is not to put more effort hoping for disproportionately higher rewards, but to put significantly less effort because the reward will drop just slightly. Do you want to up your hourly salary 5 times? Simply take 5 times as much time to deliver same feature. You might not get the 0.05x salary bump but that doesn't actually impact the calculation that much.
I work for a small company (~10 people), solving reasonably interesting problems, earn peanuts, and am happier than I was at big tech.
A bad tech manager a) thinks he/she must know more than their directs (no organization would ever scale if the leader in the hierarchy above knew all of what was below), b) micromanages competent people instead of giving them high level directives and course correcting at a high level when necessary c) can't tell the difference between the high performers and the slackers.
In my experience, there's a slew of bad managers out there, and in my present reality the bad ones are highly technical people who should not be managing human beings or projects.
What about the vast majority of workers that are doing the grudge work that keeps the company afloat? Do they not deserve a say in the direction of the company? Do workers not deserve democracy in the work place to decide their own fates? Why should this be left of to centralized communist dictatorships (boards + executives)?
Quantifying this would be interesting though.
[0]: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20200169
> In short, the “up-or-out” path of professional life may not just be a cultural phenomenon among top professional service firms but also an efficient response to how reputation is maintained and information flows. What looks like a ruthless system of constant turnover, the researchers argue, is in reality a finely tuned mechanism that helps the market discover and reward true talent.
For people who are fans of this system, I genuinely want to understand how one overcomes the common sense, humanitarian centric rejection of corpo speak like this. Is it about just drinking the koolaid?
Actually there was a discussion about cults yesterday and now that I think about it, I'm seeing all sorts of parallels here: inventing new words and using that to complete redefine reality and transform your fundamental understanding of how the universe works or should work, supplanting with your made up fantasy world and rules that rewards the best play actor.
Economists don't work in the real world economy so they have no clue or idea what these things even mean. They work for the Fed, a central bank or in academia. Sometimes and only sometimes do they work for banks or as quants, but then they usually make enough money to never have to question the system. Bankers usually have MBAs that specialize in banking and finance. They don't need to understand economics, they need to understand how the businesses they allocate capital towards function.
Economists are insulated from the real economy, because economists are redundant to the real economy and I'm not saying that to denigrate economists, it's what economists tell each other all day in their research.
Purely theoretically speaking, they say free markets are self regulating and stabilizing and efficient. You don't need economists to steward or study the economy according to economics itself.
Weirdly enough, economists aren't historians either. They don't teach how economies have been run in the past, they just presume some sort of proto-market economy and that market economies have existed since the dawn of time.
I don't think you'll find any "fans" of a up-or-out system, but you will find people who will gravitate towards it because the 'up' part of it can be extremely lucrative. Not everyone can make it, but people will try and I think that is good.
As employees rise up the corporate ladder, their compensation packages increase, but the amount that the company can charge for that employee's work is limited (clients will be wanting to keep a certain margin for themselves too)
- You are a manager of a team of 4
- You hear layoffs are coming
- You have one amazing direct report, 2 just ok and 1 awful
Who do you fire?
Most people say "Of course, fire the awful person"
I say: "When this actually happened, the manager fired their best person"
Other: "But, but why? That's not fair!"
Me: "You know layoffs are coming. You are the most expensive person on the team. If you fire the awful person there may be questions about why you even hired them. They then fire you and keep your amazing person as the manager (probably for less money).
You fire your best person, well then now you as the manager are the best person AND you can make the argument that that awful person needs 'more managing to be effective'"
It's not pretty or noble or heartwarming but this is how the logic goes in a lot of big firms (especially around layoff season).
Firing the best person because they outshine the master is plausible. One of the 48 Laws of Power.
The only other thing I have to say about it is I have noticed a high correlation with the reports produced and the things employees have been telling management to do for a long time - that is to say, there is some utility to having an outsider provide the information... even if that information isn't novel at all.
That shouldn't be happening. This is managerial incompetence normalized. Why does the management of a company not trust its own people? They should have hired their people from "the outside" already. The correlation you're seeing is people who are not leaders but bosses in charge of teams. Good leaders don't need external validation, they either trust their team or make the problem fully outsourced to an external team like a consultant firm.
> all the work I've ever seen done by Deloitte, McKinsey, or PWC was mediocre at best
That tracks with my experience. Everyone I've met whom I know are competent at what they do have had similar remarks on these firms.
From my observation, they are part of a larger endemic issue of metric-chasing. They come up with a list of check boxes where if you follow them like a formula you'll achieve measurable results. Everything they do revolves around measurements and meeting measurement targets.
The problem is, when targets aren't met, then their method and advice is put into question. Therefore there is a perverse incentive at play where on one hand they do really want you to succeed, but on the other hand getting into the weeds and figuring out why you can't meet the targets deviates from their check-list approach. It will look like they advised you to do something, and now they're telling you you should do something else, it will look like they don't know what they're doing, and the one cardinal rule of consulting is you never say you don't know (or appear like it). The result is they water down what needs to be done, and they'll be flexible with interpretations of what counts as measurable.
In summary, I would like to say there is a place for these firms, but I won't, because I don't know if that is even true. I'll say that an outside firm will never have your company/team as their #1 priority; there will absolutely and without exception be scenarios where it will be a conflict of interest for them to do something that will benefit your team/org.
And using these companies to justify decisions, or back up decisions.. that again is part of the leadership endemic. People who do that are not leaders. They're bosses covering their own you-know-what. My opinion is that they facilitate poor/weak management culture.
Talent-wise, there is no doubt they hire the most talented and experienced people. But it almost feels like hiring a navy seal to be your personal trainer, but if you do what they say and you're not seeing results, they're not allowed to figure out what really is happening and correct their own advice. And to start with, they won't even aim to make you look like a navy seal, but work out some formula most people can work with, so the whole navy seal thing is just for show anyways.
Sorry for rambling on, maybe I'm too biased with my own experience here.
EDIT: I just wanted to add: If any company is firing the bottom performers, their management don't understand the problem of perverse incentives. Actual performance no longer matters, performance that can fool the measurement system sufficiently enough is what matters. The metrics will look good, revenue will be mediocre and long term sustainability will degrade. Good or bad, metrics and measurements shouldn't be used to make decisions, they can only be used to ask questions! An employee can have bad metrics if they're spending all their time helping other team members or solving yet-to-be-measured problems. Matter of fact, I would even dare say that metrics/measurements/KPOs shouldn't even be considered at all unless goals aren't being met. If your golden goose is laying bigger and bigger eggs, don't perform explorative surgery on it.
Literally what you said: getting paid to tell management what every employee knows and has been trying to tell them for years.
It's political and I have begun to strongly believe that the best leave or are schemed against by the mediocre cabal. You cannot continue in a large firm in India if you are anywhere near good.
I’m not doubting your story (I’ve never worked in India) I just don’t understand the incentive to fire a good worker in this scenario.
CEO
VP (usually a family member or a "chamcha" literally spoon, but means sycophant.)
Directors (all yes-men chamchas)
Worker bees
Not very different from most companies, in my experience.
Many times novices to this game, work mad hours, only to realise a year or two down the lane, some guy who practically did no work but comes from the same state your manager does, is now promoted above you.
I took over a unit where 80% of the engineers were from one state, and mostly from the same college as the previous hiring manager.
There was one particular misfit - competent engineer but didn't have any skills for my BU.
I tried to transfer him to the hiring manager's new unit, and he refused. So I told him I would have to fire the misfit. Guess what, the next day he found a req and took the misfit.
This was a pattern everywhere I worked. So when I was able to dictate hiring policies, one rule was that we would never visit the same college twice in row. This of course made me very unpopular with HR. Now they had to work harder to maintain connections with placement departments.
The real cause of our dysfunctional system is the debris of nehruvian socialism (he was a covert communist masking himself as a Fabian socialist).
He didn't reform the British divide and control mechanisms but continued them and in fact made them worse. If you think your bureaucracy is bad, wait till you see ours.
These are "one exam wonders." They clear one exam, and with zero life experience at the age of 25 can sabotage almost any enterprise with their clerical behaviour.
Our own deep state.
It's much better in the private sector but this mindset is pervasive.
Apparently this Nehru chap has been dead for 60 years. In fact, India has only been a country for 80 years so he's been dead for most of the time India has been around.
Likewise with Ronald Reagan. Supposedly he's responsible for all the woes of California since.
I've got to be honest. It's not that convincing.
It reminds me of those engineers who you hire and one month in they don't have anything to show because of "tech debt" and shit like that. It's always the fault of some guy who has long left. Then you hire other engineers and they just nail it. Such is life. There's blamers and doers and the two are not usually the same.
The fact is that for every policy the government introduces, the entrenched clerks find ways to sabotage it.
If you think you can handle it I invite you to come and apply for any government scheme of your choice.
True story: we once sent an NDA to a government ministry for review and it came back with one objection after 11 months. The objection was that the year was wrong in the document.
After that we no longer bid for any government work.
They just have to outlast each elected government of five years and they have a similar judiciary which protects them.
There was a (feeble) attempt by the current government in their previous term to reform the judiciary (NJAC Act) and the entrenched judges ruled it unconstitutional. Unlike the US, judges aren't political appointees, they appoint each other.
Unlike all those engineers who will say there's too much 'tech debt'. Everything is always "entrenched" and 'too hard to change' and shit like that. Then someone who is both interested in changing things and has sufficient will to change things shows up and it turns out it wasn't that hard after all. Seen it in eng orgs numerous times.
It wouldn't be surprising that India has no one like that. These people are rare. The US got one and it turns out you also need competence or the changes will just be totally bogus.
[0] https://www.thehindu.com/society/nehrus-socialism-was-evolut...
They were once caught red handed cropping images of documents to push their narrative.
https://www.opindia.com/2019/02/the-hindu-not-only-cropped-t...
It has been 50 years since his time. And most of what he did now has largely faded out to nothingness. OTOH, his time wasn't all that bad either. Even till 2000s cities in South India were very liveable, with decent quality of life.
Most of Indias problem come from a brutal zero sum game society, where population is too large, and there isn't enough affluence going around.
Everyone, every community and sub group, down the individual has to do anything in takes to snatch, hoard and then deny as many resources they can. Even if it means wrecking everything that exists to get there.
Nothing good comes out of these things.
To begin with fixing India, you must work towards having affluence of a few decades atleast. A generation or two need to live through this to wash away behaviours of a scarcity game.
In all seriousness they mentioned India not mango fango. That said, my xp has been the same as you. Only time top performers get nixed is if a whole arm gets nixed and they get caught in the crossfire.
Most people struggle just to keep their head above water nonetheless come up with elaborate conspiracies of sabotaging other peoples careers. No one is thinking about you that much.
Now I'm on the flip side, in a place where I may have to put someone on a PIP. What can be done has been done. There is only so much support and positive guidance that can be offered before you have to provide them with a plan backed with consequences for not following through. It is an employee that I don't want to lose because of their contributions, but it is also an employee that I can't afford to keep because (without changes) they are a liability. Unfortunately, previous interactions suggest that I will have to cut my losses. Yet the ball lies entirely in their court at this point because they are the one who has to take ownership for the issues they create.
Case 1: You're a high performer, one year into the role. A colleague, who's been around longer but struggled, gets promoted not necessarily on merit, but on their ability to manage up. Your early contributions are quietly absorbed into their promotion case. Once they step into a managerial role, the dynamics shift. Unless you stay quiet and compliant, you’re suddenly less welcome in the team.
Case 2: High Performers: Some managers (even partners) feel threatened when team members build credibility with clients. I’ve seen situations where a client repeatedly requesting a specific consultant backfired on that consultant. At year-end reviews, client recognition turned into a liability, not an asset.
Credit Allocation:In some Big 4 setups, CRM credit allocation is less about contribution and more about visibility and tagging. Accounts are assigned to partners who may not actively engage, yet receive full credit. Technical sales teams, who drive actual deals but don't "own" accounts, often find their impact diluted. In some cases, partners even tag themselves as "owners" of said accounts mid-pursuit to claim credit post-close. At the year end, the actual deal closers are usually running around begging partners for credit. You might end up getting 30% of what you actually closed. This works well for partners as incentives outflow is reduced leaving money on the table.
Event Marketing Shell Game: Large-format partner-led events in places like Goa or Dubai are positioned as knowledge exchange and brainstorming events. Behind the scene Sales teams are pushed hard to invite prospects where the engagement has been going on for months. When those deals close weeks/months later, the event organizers often claim the outcome; regardless of who did the heavy lifting.
Its honestly mostly like a queue, you can't see why people who came before should get a early exit. But those people had people before them too, and thought the same. Now that you arrived, you think your specific case be prioritised above them for merits you think count above theirs and not necessarily their place in the queue.
As much as we all think we are special, we mostly aren't, time and queue position plays a huge role in most things in the society.
Its pointless to fight the queue system, most events in life happen in an order, and its pointless to fight cause-effect sequences. Some exceptions to this absolutely exist, but this is the general rule.
>>At year-end reviews, client recognition turned into a liability, not an asset.
Do not outshine the master - 48 laws of power
Remember the system is a part of the game, if you threaten someone you will take their job, its in their interest now to see through the end of you.Jack who just arrived and pushed ONE sack up slightly faster than Dave, in the first week, thinks he must be promoted above Dave right then and there. Or its oppression.
To start with accept this thing first. Its human fallacy to confuse making rapid changes to a process as making fast progress. In reality sticking to one thing for long is what brings the big progress.
You might want to talk to martial arts people, stock investors/traders, musicians, surgeons, or anyone for that matter.
Someone who shows up on the 10001th morning, is not the same as some one who showed up on the 100th morning, even if the latter is some performing better creating a his own personal local maxima.
I've too often seen Dave praised for carrying sacks day in day out instead of placing them on the goddamn conveyor belt. Some have come to doubt the conveyor belts utility when we could all just be carrying the sacks. In fact if we got rid of the conveyor belt we could hire our cousin and brother-in-law to be cool like Dave.
And keeping the conveyor belt running seamlessly for years, requires showing up for years too.
There are no replacements for sticking to one thing for long.
This is not a description of how talented, or smart, or “good at something” someone is. You are describing how risk-averse someone is, as well as how able to survive failure. The latter is slightly different from the former, although related. Someone not able to survive failure at all (due to having no savings, for example, or perhaps someone who has high monthly fixed costs) ought to have a low tolerance for risk, but they might still have a lower threshold for what they consider risky relative to someone else.
I’ve met plenty of talented/smart/etc people in each of these groups, and also plenty of the opposite. To be fair, my experience is anecdotal and biased, although I would reasonably expect such a pattern to continue.
You have clearly not worked in any major company in India, Or even other nations (since PIP is a common process worldwide in most companies).
Any employee can escalate to the company Ombudsman if they feel they are being subjected to unfair treatment or inappropriate processes. It is the job of the Ombudsman to be neutral and do an thorough impartial investigation.
PIP (Performance Improvement Plan) is a formal process, it even HR and senior management (skip level 1 manager at the very least) are involved in it. There is specific time duration and set of expectations given formally (under review process with HR, so there is full transparency) to the employee to improve the performance.
A top performer cannot be nixed via PIP, because the onus of performance proofs is on the employee and those evidences are visible to HR and upper management.
PIP is used to nix bad performers, not top performers.
Typically, even if an employee clears PIP, they need to get an "Exceed Expectations" (or equivalent) appraisal rating in the next appraisal cycle in order to continue in the organisation, but if they get lower rating instead, they are in hit list to be nixed during next round of job cuts whenever it happens.
Top performers may quit due to office politics and lack of growth, but PIP is not their way out.
PIP is a permanent black mark on an employee's record (which is maintained historically), so it disallows the company from hiring that person again if that person exited due to PIP.
Top companies in India and elsewhere have very formal processes, including Ombudsman and PIP, which get audited.
I was too pissed off to go to an ombudsman. It honestly didn’t occur to me. It just felt like “this guy hates me and wants me out.”
He called me two years after I was fired to inquire about missing equipment that I never had.
If you were innocent of that dangerous charge, you should have fought hard against it, and ensured the top management, HR head and Ombudsman became involved in the investigation.
Being fired for theft or such serious crimes, can and will leave a permanent black mark on your employment record with the HR, and it may get pulled up during BGV (Background Verification) invoked by a prospective employer evaluating your candidacy for hire, thus seriously affecting your career and life.
I think you should now reach out to that company HR and clear the conspiracy and black mark against you. Perhaps, you can hire a lawyer who deals with employment matters, so he or she can legally get the matter resolved in your favour.
Source: current concluding my stint at Deloitte.
Its a brutal zero/negative sum game, at a country level, but plays out in every individual's life, and at a punishing pace, intensity and frequency.
Anybody who doesn't prioritise their self interests at any and all costs, suffers.
Just stubbornly refuse to do a thing that isn't beneficial to you. You will come out fine.
The top employee is probably getting noticed and headhunted by the clients.
The top employee is probably getting pissed off at the mediocrity surrounding them, and annoyed at constantly having to share credit for their hard work with their bad manager who did nothing.
The top employee quickly realises that this is a badly-paid gig, and plans to spend the minimum time doing it that will confer the necessary Resume points.
The worst employee has no other options, is scared of losing this gig because they struggle to find other gigs, enjoys being able to hide their mediocrity in the team, and will stay as long as possible. They'll probably end up being promoted.
I've seen this written about before... roughly, after a few years into your corporate career, your job splits into two parts: the skill part (your effort and ability to get stuff done) and the political part (navigating humans in a corporate hierarchy). Say what you like about the political part, for most people, it is unavoidable.
The quality of the work isn't as important as the margin between the cost of labor and the income earned by it.
To be the best and still pass that test you need to be so good that it makes up for your higher cost, which is a more difficult bar to pass than being good enough but being cheap. Also there's an upper limit anyway where no matter how good your margin is, your cost can't be justified, since "local market rates" apply downward pressure, as well as an upper limit on how much clients are willing to pay or the size of the market you're selling to or temporal factors e.g only a certain amount of widgets a country can consume in a month.
There is no labor under capitalism without significant profit margin, and always the profit extractor (employer) is trying to get the most profit for the least cost from the profit generator (employee), who is in the opposite position, but at a disadvantage since they are a human who is influenced by things like social pressure, a desire for recognition, and the natural human tendency to be good at something and do it well. The employer isn't human, it's just a profit generating algorithm, and so only cares about such things insomuch as it can leverage them to increase profits.
There's other factors in play as well though that corporations can't include in their algorithm since they're purely selfish actors which results in macroeconomic catastrophes, so for example if wages get too low then people don't buy things anymore which drives down profits from selling which forces wages down lower and so on until economic collapse.
The premise here might have some insights, but is hardly paradoxical (missing from the title posted here); you'd expect low-quality firms to have low-quality practices.
The wiki page doesn't do it full justice, as I understood it it is:
* A firm can easily end up in a situation where weak performers stay as long as they can, and strong performers leave because they can operate independently. This can have a very strong effect because the partners or permanent management starts seeking out work to keep the bulk of their remnant people busy, which is not the high end work that builds the firms reputation.
* Instead, make offers every year to the top 3 people from each Ivy League law school, but the offers are for 18 months only.
* If the new people aren't going to make partner ever, don't keep them around. Let them know well before the 18 months are up, and have them pick the corporate clients they like and work with them so they can jump over to working for the client directly, and they will then always come back to the mothership when the giant, interesting, complex case comes along.
* Out of each "class" you make partner offer to only the best, maybe none, each year.
This differs from the article because the firm is keeping the best and sending out the rest.
But maybe most firms aren't like the Cravath, they prefer to over charge clients for a weak performer then charge and pay a strong performer ? Maybe this makes sense if you have a very short term view of the life of your firm and it's reputation ?
> “Firms now essentially can threaten the remaining employees: ‘Look, I can let you go, and everybody’s going to think that you’re the worst in the pool. If you want me not to let you go, you need to accept below market wages,’”
This is exactly what unions are for. Any time there are enough skilled workers avilable that a company can let good employees go as a warning to others not to complain about substandard wages it's clear that the imbalance of power has resulted in exploitation. There is strength in numbers though which is why companies go to great lengths to convince people that you all alone negotiating with a huge corporation of people who have more money and resources than you'll ever see in your lifetime and who can replace you with someone else easily is somehow totally fair. No matter how special they might make you feel, you are almost always disposable to them and they will drop you at any time and for any reason, even if it's just to make an example out of you to keep your ex-coworkers in fear.
For the very few employees out there who actually are totally indispensable, any sane company would be looking for your replacement immediately because there's no telling what might happen to you or when. No company should fail because one employee dies in a car cash or gets a cancer diagnosis. Until you are also replaceable the company isn't safe. They'll pay you handsomely to keep you, right up until the moment they don't have to.
No. I think it's a combination of:
1) HN being associated with a startup incubator, and thus attracting a large contingent of people who see themselves as the boss doing this, not the workers affected;
2) tech attracts a certain kind of gullible person who's easily seduced by tidy little systems like the pop-capitalism of libertarian tracts; and
3) tech workers (until recently) had more economic bargaining power than a typical worker, so could delude themselves into thinking they do better by going it alone.
bad take.
In short don’t find it condescending to say a bias exists, independently of the agreement with the political line of thinking.
In fact when I was younger I was condescending the other way: surely if you are not into libertarianism your systemic thinking must be limited.
That is exactly what I meant.
Also tech people are often intelligent (in a way) and identify as such, but then let that get to their head and get really overconfident about whatever clicks with them.
Are you one of those people who clutches their pearls and tells on your co-worker to management for discussing how much money they make?
Those are definitely a kind of 'people'.
From people I've spoken to personally, I've seen it as primarily #3 - "Why do we need collective bargaining when we have negotiating power from being in high demand with lower supply?" - despite IMHO that is when you should be using that power for such, as that power will never last forever.
Don't need politics/a "type of person" to be only looking at the short term, and thinking the current status quo will last forever. It seems pretty much a constant in every demographic.
The reason I'm opposed to it isn't because it wouldn't be good for tech people. I'm opposed to it because in general I think it would be more bad for everyone else than it would be good for tech people. I expect they would see fewer products, higher prices on the products that they have, and lower quality products. Additionally, I expect the union to advocate for the interests of the tech workers, which would generally be for tech workers to make more money, and not in the interests of broader society.
You can see a great example of this with the AMA, which did a great job advocating for the government to reduce the number of new doctors. It's probably great for existing doctors, but the rest of us should not be happy that we're paying more for our healthcare because of it.
A difference is that there's not necessarily an inherent size limit on companies while there is an inherent size limit on individuals because you can only be one person. One person can only be so economically valuable.
However, that's why we have the whole system of antitrust to say when a company gets too big, as soon as we can show that it's having some kind of negative effect on consumers, we split it up. And that's exactly what we should do. And we definitely should prevent more mergers as well. What I would do differently w.r.t. antitrust is say that instead of only looking at harm to consumers (those who a company sells to), we should also look at harm to workers (aka those who a company buys from).
One flaw in your logic you seem to thing "an employee" and "a company" are peers. They're not. A company is an equivalent level of "banding together" as a union. A company and an employee union are peers, an employee and a company are not.
> However, that's why we have the whole system of antitrust to say when a company gets too big, as soon as we can show that it's having some kind of negative effect on consumers, we split it up.
And you're mixed up here too:
1. The employee-company relationship is entirely different than the customer-company one. Talking about consumer prices in the employee-company context is nonsense.
2. You're neglecting that all companies have certain interests in common as employers. So even if you break them all up, you're not going to solve the problems a union solves.
Use of "would" implies you believe they don't.
This is incredibly condescending. This is exactly the type of elitism speak that tells people how to vote because they know whats better for them.
Condescending towards who? Overpaid code monkeys? Maybe they should start a professional victimhood organization
> that tells people how to vote because they know whats better for them.
A large portion of this country doesn’t even have the self stewardship to not eat themselves to obesity. Such people should have no place in any political process ideally.
In the Nordics quite many tech workers are in unions. For most people it's perhaps just about habits and solidarity, but they do offer tangible benefits like free consultation and legal representation in a case of dispute with your employer.
Unions are powerful because they can call for protests and employees who are in a union cant get laid off due to joining the protest. But its not worth if the job already has way better working conditions than like 80% of jobs out there.
Even without unions Europe wouldn't have US tech salary levels, those numbers come from other market dynamics.
Say all the engineers in all the top engeering companies by pay were suddenly in a union, how does the collective bargaining work on pay. You don't think pay would be lowered for high level engineers?
Collective bargaining would not apply to any of these salaries. Collective bargaining as we usually understand it sets the lower bound for salaries in a certain field, think of it as field specific minimum wage. Indeed, some Nordic countries have no minimum wage at all because ~all fields are covered by collective bargaining -- regardless whether the employees are part of the union or not!
So no, pay would not be lowered. I don't understand where this kind of a misconception comes from. Collective bargaining does not mean that everyone gets the same salary. As I said earlier, you are free to negotiate a higher salary, and companies wanting to attract top talent will still have to compete through compensation.
In the top engineering companies, collective bargaining could be used to negotiate other perks, like paid leaves, hour banks where you collect all work time exceeding a regular work day, paid parental leaves, and/or whatever topics are important for the work force. I'm not the one to define that though.
Collective salary bargaining is efficient in fields where the workforce is highly interchangeable, and the workers' ability to produce higher value is limited. If factory workers, miners, or nurses are not unionized they are really placing themselves in a precarious position.
It seems like there should be room for a happy medium somewhere where some workers in the US maybe don't get the same salaries but are also not having to spend so much on healthcare, get more time with their families, get better just protections, etc. Once you make enough money that you're not really worried about meeting your bills and can pretty much buy what you want the peace of mind is more important than the bragging rights you get over who has a bigger paycheck.
So I so 0 benefit for me to join a union.
But the answer is that your insurance shouldn’t be tied to your employer in the US. You don’t need unions for that.
This varies. e.g. Sweden: if there are over 25 employees, the union gets a seat in the board.
https://bolagsverket.se/en/foretag/aktiebolag/startaaktiebol...
And that severance was from Amazon.
Fast forward to 2020, I used all of my RSUs/signing bonus to rebuild savings, pay off debt and when Amazon started Amazoning, I had 9 months worth of savings in the bank. But people are being laid off from BigTech after working there for decade having an existential crisis. I’m thinking WTF have they been doing with their money.
But this is, I think, a result of a historical government strategy to favour exports by keeping the Swedish krona weak rather than a result of unions. This whole business with alignment between the Swedish social democrat party and the big industrial export companies are a thing which simultaneously allowed Sweden to develop but which also brought enormous problems. The immigration madness of, 1990 to now is probably also a result of this alignment.
Top post is essentially saying Americans/SWE are dumb for not being in a union, then comparing to other countries. As soon as someone companies US SWE salaries to these union countries it falls apart quickly.
I'm an American SWE, I still haven't seen one good reason why I would want to be in a Union.
You haven't given any good reasons why unions are bad that I and other people haven't already given counterexamples for.
Capital hates organized labor specifically because they have to worry about the risk of collective action, which changes the risk calculus to favor less extreme profit generating opportunities at the expense of minimizing poking the workforce the wrong way.
You alone can be ignored. You and your Union brothers, in great enough number, cannot be.
On the other hand, when I was at $BigTech, interns straight out of college in 2022 were being offered total comp packages of $165K and within 3 years and one promotion were making $240K and that was at Amazon. It’s nowhere near the top paying company.
Right now on my 10th job out of college I’m paying $700 a month pre-tax for family coverage through my company and even that is about the most I’ve ever paid. If I hit one with a low deductible it would be around $1100 a month.
Long Term Disability coverage if added on is around $10 a month.
But the larger point, with the discrepency between comp in the US and Sweden, a US tech worker should be able to build up an emergency fund.
Story time: Berlin in Germany is pretty left leaning. So there was / is a MC Donalds which regularly formed union for employees, MC Donalds just closed the restaurant and reopened later, several times lol
Choose any other major metro city in the US outside of the west coast and you will see the same.
Jeez, it was such a stupid movie ruining the franchise. Nobody needed a rushed sequel.
What traits do you think are going to be common in the audience it attracts?
No, I don't care about being in a unicorn and I'm not a embarrassed billionaire. But I don't idolize unions either.
I don't want to be paid the same as all other workers with the same title, I like getting personal bonuses based on performance. I don't want to be in a union.
That's not what unions do.
> I like getting personal bonuses based on performance
A union doesn't prevent that.
Film and TV actors, and professional athletes are in unions. They are not all paid the same. They get lavish bonuses based on performance.
Retail and fast food workers are usually not in unions. They don't make much money.
A union can't increase wages (much) and it doesn't decrease wages. Only supply and demand can do that.
Union membership won't save Kylian Mbappe from being dropped to the bench if he doesn't score enough goals. His endorsement deals or his agent's influence might do it.
I've worked with union shops as clients and I've hit a surprising amount of friction due to things which seemed union related. Things like "that's not my job and we need XYZ to do it" and what seemed like people slacking at their job from the outside. I once needed a desk moved a few feet which required a power strip to be plugged into a different wall outlet, and was told we need to wait for the electricians. Risking the wrath and fallout, I did it myself.
I've also seen this kind of behavior at non-union shops, but it was less explicitly stated and it was relatively easy to do something about it.
I'm sure you're correct about the quality of life at union shops.
Has anyone seriously thought this through or is it just theory.
If not having unions leads to high wages and good working conditions, why aren't retail and fast food workers making bank? Why do they get treated like shit? Please tell us.
"Unions mean every worker gets paid the same!"
"Unions mean I will make less money!"
"Unions make it impossible to fire underperformers!"
"Unions are run by bosses whose incentives are different than workers!"
"Unions mean I can't plug in my own workstation!"
"Unions reward seniority over everything else!"
Like they've taken every spook story they've been told about unions, gathered up the worst parts, and then simply declare that unions, by law, must necessarily be all those bad things.
Tell me why I should want a union for myself.
That's really all there is to it. A "union" doesn't necessarily have to look like the Teamsters.
Yes, of course, I'm human! But the things that mostly annoy me are the other 20 employees, not "the system".
And the little things that bother me, if it were too bad I would try and fix it or move on. I don't see how a Union helps, I suppose you assume that we all have the same annoyances and we band together.
The problem is we are all smart enough to realize how good we have it actually, and nobody wants to rock that boat.
This resonates so deeply within me
There may be reasons union membership is wrong for you personally. That's a valid position to have.
A close female relative declined to cooperate with a unionization effort at her job -- she made good tips and didn't want to pay dues. She started receiving threatening calls at night describing her indoor pets and other details of her home that heavily implied that the caller had physically surveilled it, or was perhaps currently nearby. While the unionization effort ultimately failed, the harassment she endured left psychological scars.
My best friend's brother lost his union job after refusing to work unpaid overtime for them. When he showed up at his second job (with another union) he found out he was also fired there -- the union bosses in town had collaborated to blacklist him. So he took a non-union job framing houses. Months later, some union goons caught him alone on a job site and assaulted him for being a scab. They struck him several times with a 2x4 and kicked him. He nearly died.
Other friends in town have had their tires slashed, windows broken, or had out-of-state union members show up at their house on the weekend after trying to step down as union steward.
Even when I don't know the people involved, I can see the union machinery at work around me. When my local children's hospital awarded a parking garage contract to the lowest bidder, the local carpenter's union wanted a cut of the action. So the union brought in ruffians from out of state to protest the job site, causing delays. Someone covered the downtown with defamatory posters with pictures of the man who owned the construction company, so that his family, friends, and people he'd never met would see him made out to be the devil. The hospital and construction company could have made all the sabotage and harassment go away if they paid their protection money.
All the unions my family has experienced this century are just organized crime.
So what is the plan?
The United Auto Workers partially funded the Port Huron Statement authored by Students for a Democratic Society, a generally socialist group. Now, it's entirely plausible that the UAW leadership wanted to have some modicum of influence, and that's why they loaned them an entire union retreat on Lake Huron. But I doubt that the average UAW factory worker was excited to see their union dues used to provide elite college students with a mostly-free vacation for political organizing.
I am not a labor law expert by any means, but my understanding of, say, German labor law is that it's much better at actually representing the workers in a given factory, in part because a union that doesn't do that loses its members to ones that will (since there's no requirement that everyone in a given job class has to join the same union).
Does collective action mean everyone gets paid the same? If not, how does that work exactly?
The way it works in the movie industry is actors or writers can sign a contract with minimum union terms. Or, if they're a big name, their agent negotiates a contract on their behalf.
From time to time the union membership will want improvements or changes to the minimum terms. If they don't get these terms then the union - stars and everyone else - goes on strike.
These strikes are well publicized. I'm surprised you haven't heard of them.
I don't know what that means.
The writers could go on strike for years, so what?
That new bureaucratic layer would be designed to benefit you, and if it were to stop doing that and suddenly no longer served the interests of it's members you'd have the power to replace the leadership of that union or to leave it and start a new one. This is a huge improvement from the current bureaucratic layer of HR admin-types which you have zero say in how they operate and which is absolutely not looking out for your interests at all.
It's hard to understand the mindset of "I'd rather just be powerless in the job I have because that seems easier."
that new bureaucratic layer would be designed to benefit you,
Why are union SWE jobs so much worse off in terms of benefits and compensation than non union jobs?Because that’s not the case? In America it is still extremely easy to find alternative lucrative work, or simply start your own business; because in software development the worker basically owns the means of production - himself. This is an extremely powerful bargaining position and it’s why SWE pays so well here.
Athletes, actors, doctors, and other professions still have to negotiate with centralized capital to some degree in a way SWE never will
I am an engineer in a unionized workplace. It's great. I make a ton of money, management is respectful, and work life balance is not based on the whims of whoever has a self-imposed emergency this week. My work is satisfying, and I have an avenue for resolving any complaints I might have with management.
Nobody tells me 'what I can't do' like some kind of anti-union cartoon that some people seem to think represents reality.
Unions aren't for coal miners. They are for anyone who cares about not being abused by the power imbalance inherent to the relationship between owners and laborers.
You are not a temporarily embarrassed billionaire. You have more in common with the steelworkers you seem to disdain so much than you do with them.
Software developers aren’t laborers, they’re the capital.
Unions are low on my list to address labour issues. They create a whole slew of problems, but I also recognize that collectivized bargaining is one of the few tools workers have to represent their interests so I see them as a necessary evil.
I also think if you do a text embedding on the recent years of HN post and you look for conversations on unions, you'll find a plurality of support.
Naturally, these individuals had very little interest in waiting in line behind retiring gray-beards for high pay and job security. They experienced that just being interested in tech was enough for huge opportunities to fall into their lap.
Of course 25 years later, that ship has sailed and almost nobody is hiring people without a degree in C. And now you have the self taught gray-beards bumping up against ageism and the weird effects AI is having on the marketplace, and they're starting to wonder if, "hmmm, maybe unions aren't such a bad idea after all."
What these unions achieve by forming solidarity between the most exceptional talent and more average working members is that they can establish baseline working conditions that are respectful and non-exploitative, a wage floor that allows occasional workers to earnestly commit to their trade even when confronted with intermittent downtime, internally managed group benefit programs that free producers from needing to administer and offer them and give members stability in participation, etc
A healthy union for software engineers, which the gaming industry in particular is well suited towards right now, looks more like one of these kinds of unions than it does a factory laborers union. And by the accounts of both talent and producers, at basically all levels, these unions fundamentally provide a clear benefit to the market. Tension and bluster flare up during frustrating negotiations, but almost nobody with experience in these industries wants to get rid of these unions. Not even the producers.
>A healthy union for software engineers, which the gaming industry in particular is well suited towards right now, looks more like one of these kinds of unions than it does a factory laborers union.
I don't think so. Software engineers are not generally operating in the brand or personality space. Their employers just want work done and nobody cares who does it.
I am running short on time but basically I want to leave you with the forgotten disadvantaged of unions: favoring more advantaged workers over more desperate ones, putting a floor on minimum skill level to get hired, costing everyone outside the union more money (including employers and consumers). Maybe these down sides can be negligible sometimes but you'll rarely hear anyone say this stuff. They talk about fellow humans who want to work more badly than themselves "scabs". I think unions can be a net positive but I don't buy the popular narrative that they are glorious with no disadvantages.
Oh hell yes.
Also, look at the cast of a movie. There are tens to hundreds of people. Very few of them are recognized names, at least to the general public. It's no only the big names that are union members, far from it.
You remember the writer's strike right? The lesser paid writers were all over the internet complaining about their union, saying it was dominated by big name people who can afford to be on strike while the lesser paid people were becoming destitute. The same thing happens in other unions too, no doubt.
Suppose you wanted to work in a different technology stack and would perhaps be 75% as productive as more experienced people in the first year. According to union rules, based on your experience level, you might be shoehorned into a role where they would have to pay you more than you're worth. The same kind of shit happens to less specialized workers. If the minimum salary is higher than your expected productivity, and you can't adjust it according to market conditions, you will be unhireable. However, that is only in an honest system. Nepotism and bribery would be easier to justify when you don't let people get a fair shake.
Oh, but they do! A core part of most union contracts is figuring out how to limit the number of people eligible to be hired.
That’s why “union shops” exist. Or: why (in the entertainment industry) a production pays a heavy fine to hire non-union actors. Doctors do a similar thing by having the AMA lobby to limit the number of credentials granted each year.
Limiting the number of CA who get qualified per year.
Additionally, software developers tend to be pretty anti-gatekeeper, so if we are opposed to even credentialing, such as other engineering disciplines, why would there be any appetite for a union?
A union isn't any of the things that the capital class wants you to think they are. Have you ever wondered why anti-union propaganda is so well funded? Think about it for a minute.
A union is just when you and your co-workers pool your collective power so that the owners can't push you around. That's it. What you do after that is up to you.
I've never heard of union rules here. Employees are not required to be part of the union in order to get their benefits, the unions just negotiate with employers on behalf of all employees. I've also never heard of credentials/gatekeeping for unions in the companies I've worked in.
For reference, I was working as a software developer at a University on a research project: I got the benefits of the higher education university (nationally negotiated pay scales, holiday benefits, etc) but was not a member.
Pay was lower, yes, but that wasn't mandatory; that was just the budget of a research project.
One kinda relevant to the present moment and the fact that dude still has a street named after him in SF - Cesar Chavez running his own border patrol against undocumented immigrants https://humanrights.fhi.duke.edu/chavez-ufw-and-wetback-prob... As much I despise it, I feel the current administration really missed a trolling opportunity, naming their thing Cesar Chavez Memorial Patrols.
The funny one from a 1960ies govt report on UK shipbuilding industry: ...literally took three different workers to change a lightbulb: …a laborer (member of the Transport and General Workers Union) [to] carry the ladder to site, a rigger (member of the Amalgamated Society of Boilermakers, Shipwrights, Blacksmiths and Structural Workers Union) [to] erect it and place it in the proper position, and an electrician (member of the Electrical Trades Union) [to] actually remove the old bulb and screw in the new one. Production was often halted while waiting
Call me old-fashioned but I don't want to wait for a different union member to run my build! (and the situation like this still occurs - someone I know works at a place where they are not allowed to clean up above a certain trivial threshold and have to wait for a custodian, because otherwise the latter union would be pissed)
Unions are, in essence, a pressure group for locking down certain jobs against anyone else who might want them, and against any kind of technological progress. They will, and have been shown to, do anything - from lobbying for legal monopolies to violence against immigrants, other workers, political candidates; racism, connections to organized crime - in pursuit of that goal. And blocking any attempts at improvement and automation.
The goal itself though, on top of the methods, is fundamentally evil. It's next level up from people who don't want immigrants to "take jobs", at least for immigrants there's some flimsy justification, but unions operate against their fellow citizens.
From a purely moral perspective, compromising principles for personal gain aside, I'd rather join a drug cartel than a union.
But yes, unions are great particularly when the labor market is tough.
Unions are mostly extortion schemes to benefit the union leaders.
My read is that they're getting paid in prestige rather than money. The worker can turn that prestige into money further down the line by saying "I worked at so-and-so for five years" at their next interview.
Did daddy teach you that?
> saying "I worked at so-and-so for five years" at their next interview.
Oh yea, I worked at Amazon I brought my own shiv want to see it?
Yes, re the gamesmanship on pay, but if you don’t have the specific ability to bring in new business, then you’re on your way out, no matter how good a lawyer (or whatever) you are
Kaniel, Ron and Orlov, Dmitry, Intermediated Asymmetric Information, Compensation, and Career Prospects (February 4, 2020). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=3532128
see also: discussion of the consulting business model from David Maister’s book Managing the Professional Service Firm
Laughing out loud)))
The really good people have leverage so the can stay or go as they please. Meaning the people that get hit are average-ish (in the context of firm, not wider market). People good enough to make it to middle management but no further. You don't need to fire them either - they catch the drift when they don't get promoted, and those too stupid to notice were never "good".
>“Firms now essentially can threaten the remaining employees: ‘Look, I can let you go, and everybody’s going to think that you’re the worst in the pool. If you want me not to let you go, you need to accept below market wages,’” says Kaniel.
The below market rates are primarily an effect of CV-prestige rather some intricate machiavellian mind game. People tolerate it because "I was a senior role at X" has value long after you left.
That said any developer and engineering should be extremely careful when it comes to unions. In Germany they typically agitate against the interests of the engineers, especially in large companies. This comes naturally as unions get power according to democratic principles, so in most cases they agitate for benefits for unskilled workers at the cost of the engineers. At companies I worked for the Betriebsrat, which is staffed by the elected union, actively advocated for outsourcing engineering activities, so that manufacturing workers can get increased benefits.
camel_gopher•2mo ago