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"Software Engineering" Is Not Engineering

https://web.archive.org/web/20050615235108/http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/science.htm
25•abrbhat•1h ago

Comments

SideburnsOfDoom•49m ago
> 429 Too Many Requests

This is definably not engineering.

abrbhat•34m ago
The link is from Internet Archive. The original post was on geocities which has long been dead.
threethirtytwo•42m ago
>An engineer's model must be tightly bound to the laws of physics and chemistry.

Anything that exists in reality and is observable by definition is tightly bound by the laws of physics and chemistry. Software is too.

>Software is a lot like math,

Probably referring to computer science. Computer science is neither about computers nor is it a science. It is a math. Software is like math but applied.

>The only limitation is the imagination of the creator of the virtual world (and perhaps the pesky limitations of computer resources)

computer resources: AKA physical laws. And these "laws" highly limit us in what we can do. We are definetely not operating in some kind of playground where we can be virtual gods, not even close, that's why entire swe teams are involved and paid a lot in software.

Honestly the main difference between "Software Engineering" and "Engineering" is that software is more an "art". We make up a bunch of technical nomenclature for it (like design patterns which sounds technical but is mostly made up and more artsy then say statistical mechanics) but it's mostly similar to sculpture or some artistic creation as we sort of piece everything together by instinct.

The difference between this and engineering is usually engineering involves mathematical modeling and testing heavily in development, while software engineering (usually) does not involve mathematical modeling and software testing is more of a catch-all to find bugs.

Type checking is mathematical modeling, but I wouldn't call it the core of software engineering. I guess this is where the categories get blurry.

whateverboat•37m ago
Also person month is a very solid limitation.
baq•33m ago
> software engineering does not involve mathematical modeling

it absolutely can, approximately nobody was doing that because it was insanely expensive. if we narrow down the definitions, modern static typing (where modern means universally accepted nowadays) is a form of mathematical modeling and proof construction that software does what it says it does.

the economic calculation is changing extremely rapidly now with LLMs though. some of my software is now proved to be correct at some levels, e.g. I heavily (that is, LLMs I pilot) use TLA+ for tricky but nowhere near foundational distributed systems work (as in, I don't work on core S3, but do distributed transaction stuff).

abrbhat•30m ago
> Anything that exists in reality and is observable by definition is tightly bound by the laws of physics and chemistry. Software is too.

Agreed. If I have to guess, the relevant fields in physics for software engineering would be quantum mechanics and thermodynamics. Of course, we don't see any direct relation as of now but it feel it should be important to determine the physical basis of software. The basis of software cannot be just math. It has to be physics.

bob1029•28m ago
> Computer science is neither about computers nor is it a science.

https://youtu.be/-J_xL4IGhJA

SideburnsOfDoom•36m ago
Dave Farley has done some writing on what makes "Software Engineering" "Engineering"

e.g. his 2021 book " Modern Software Engineering"

> Software engineering is the application of an empirical, scientific approach to finding efficient, economic solutions to practical problems in software.

https://www.davefarley.net/?p=352

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57345270-modern-softw...

https://productdeveloper.net/modern-software-engineering/

eth0up•27m ago
Thankfully; else we'd have big heavy things with real claws and kinetic force grabbing at us endlessly, snatching our wallets with too much precision. We'd need Arnold not AdBlock, just to leave the house.

I'd say software engineering better fits economics these days. Maybe with a Psych major to maximize the dark patterns.

magarnicle•27m ago
If only there were "real" engineers who could answer this question... https://www.hillelwayne.com/tags/crossover-project/
cognitiveinline•26m ago
Crypto is not the OG cryptography! GenAI is not the OG AI!

Language is for us, not the other way around. It's common usage changes.

andy99•18m ago
Engineering is a regulated term, afaik that’s what underlies the debate, it’s not about whether English has changed.
mfer•15m ago
Engineering is not a regulated term everywhere.
GroksBarnacles•7m ago
It many countries it actually is, if you call yourself an engineer professionally without a license you can be heavily fined. Canada, Germany, France..
stymaar•3m ago
I don't think you can be fined in France for that. Though I think you'll be fired without compensation or unemployment benefits.
stymaar•6m ago
In my country (France), being an engineer (ingénieur, in French) is regulated but tied to a particular degree (which must be approved by the Commission des titres d'ingénieur), and as such I am legally a software engineer.
cromka•4m ago
Same in Poland and I imagine all of other countries in Europe which follow Bologna Process.

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"Software Engineering" Is Not Engineering

https://web.archive.org/web/20050615235108/http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/science.htm
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