If the history ran along a parallel path, I wonder what could have been different and what would have ended up exactly the same.
For the PL nerds who are curious about Loglan, check out: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrzej-Salwicki/public...
Indeed. Note that on the tape drives, the take-up reel is on the left.
Which evolved into Lojban:
This built a pretty good starting position to work on more advanced designs, but then certain stupidity happened in form of ES ("Single System") initiative, which a) was based around S/360 when S/370 was to be released b) ELWRO was assigned "mid performance" machines when it could actually deliver a much faster one.
I don't know for certain how true it is, but there's a legend that ELWRO prepared a design based on their best, but compatible with S/360 and thus rest of ES EVM - just way faster in smaller frame (effectively imagine top-tier S/360 CPU but in way smaller package), and kept true performance details secret until accidental leak caused a small but impactful political shitstorm that canceled the efforts.
Wasn't that produced as R-32?
Unfortunately, it's really hard to get reliable sources about some details.
> Programmers using Loglan’82 simply did not have to worry about issues keeping their Java-using colleagues up at night
Sometimes it would've been better if they just asked LLM to write an article.
So I went to the main train station and asked to buy a ticket to Vienna. The lady looked at me like I was a moron, turned around and dug through a meter high layer of papers and other debris, to uncover an ancient looking computer, some Croatian brand. She attempted to boot it up, amber screen and all, to no avail. “No, can’t buy ticket here, maybe on the train…”
This didn’t give me much confidence. I’d already tried to get on the train, the conductors “no ticket on train, buy at office, take train tomorrow” advice was why I was asking this lady to do some archaeology in the first place.
I ended up just renting a car.
One day I’ll go back to Zagreb and take a closer look. It really can’t be that bad - still buying tickets with ancient Soviet-era computing. As much as I love the whole mirth of this story, I still feel like I missed something obvious. I probably should’ve bought the ticket online .. but man was it amusing seeing that old amber glow reach from beneath the detritus ..
mrandish•9mo ago
Starting in 1981, I lived through the evolution of "personal computers" and have worked in the startup side of high tech most of my career. Even in the U.S. it was hard to create a successful, sustainable business in computing. I can't even imagine trying to do the same in the Eastern block with central planning, lack of ecosystem and myriad other challenges. Here in the U.S. there was a rueful saying in tech that "sometimes the better product doesn't win" but it was a saying because it was usually an exception. At least there was a general expectation that better products would win. It's kind of tragic how much engineering talent went to waste or was never utilized behind the iron curtain.
A little over 20 years ago I visited Warsaw for a few days and, of course, sought out the technology museum. I think I may have been the only visitor while I was there. Every large hall had a dedicated guard sitting in a chair, who mostly looked like retired pensioners. I felt bad because I woke up a lot of nice people just walking quietly through. The museum was mostly focused on industrial, manufacturing and agricultural technology but there was quite an extensive computer hall and it was chock full of fascinating mainframe and mini-looking systems I'd never seen, even in pictures. I was surprised that, other than terminals, there was little in the way of desktop or home computers. Thinking about it I realized that circa 2000, Poland's early desktop and home computers were probably still in use and a few years away from museum fodder. The only bad part was there was virtually no info in English (at least back then) and no mobile phone translate apps.
pndy•9mo ago
Around 2000 we were already using normal x86 machines in the offices and homes. There was a company named Optimus which had multiple branches that back then provided: computers (assembling and selling these), software - they've become an official distributor for e.g. Activision, Ubisoft, Id Software, Disney etc., translations for foreign software, and they also become one of two offical Nintendo distributors in Poland. Optimus had chances to become a really good player here but due to financial management "problems" they have failed - to put this short. In 2009 Optimus merged with what nowadays is known as CD Projekt. Optimus' other child - a web portal known originally Optimus Net has become onet.pl and it survived till today but become a part of Ringier Axel Springer Poland.
There were specific places which used our "native" machines for years. For example last Odra computer was shut down on April 30th in 2010 after 34 years of continuos work at Polish Railways computer centre.
Beside the technology museum you mentioned there is (or was - not sure what happen) an Apple museum in Warszawa - folks hoarded over 1700 items under their care.
https://applemuzeumpolska.webflow.io/en/home
https://nmt.waw.pl/en/
Country itself changed in last 20 years and if you haven't seen it again in that time, you should return
mrandish•9mo ago
Yes, I assumed so but figured if Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s similar to the Galaksija in Yugoslavia or the rare Pecom 64 (of which I have one in my collection!), that they might still be in original owners hands in 2000 instead of museums.
> Country itself changed in last 20 years and if you haven't seen it again in that time, you should return
It was lovely when I visited but there were still some signs of the old soviet era lingering. I'm sure with the economic growth since then it's remarkably different today. I hope to see it someday!
viraptor•9mo ago
Kinda, yes. Almost entirely for sentimental reasons though. The longest held ones would still likely be Amigas. Virtually only PCs were used in offices in 2000. Industrial cases would still hold on to some old machines simply because nobody upgrades those. (But that's kind of like subways today still working from floppies)
And then there's the in between of dos terminals for accounting, inventory, etc. Those were everywhere and survived for so much longer than in other countries as far as I can tell.
rasz•9mo ago
Personal possession of Home computers, printers and copiers was illegal in Poland under Iron Curtain. After all it could be, and often was [1], used to undermine the regime!
Anecdote from book "High-tech behind the Iron Curtain. Electronics, computers and control systems in the Polish People's Republic" ("High-tech za żelazną kurtyną. Elektronika, komputery i systemy sterowania w PRL" 978-83-8098-094-5)
>In 1984, "Informatyka" magazine, involved in the dissemination of these machines, reported on the adventures of Mr. Przemysław, who received in April [...] a package from his brother in Toronto, containing the VIC-20 microcomputer, power supply, cassette recorder, a set of cassettes for television games and English language manual and connecting cables. The Customs Office in Gdynia refused to issue an import license, stating that it could issue [...] only if the computer was necessary for the citizen's professional or scientific work
Computers became legal somewhere around 1985 when Atari landed in special regime Pewex enterprise shops - shops only accepting hard western currency, currency illegal to own privately in the country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewex
Elwro computers were sold to ministry of education or send to USSR sold for "transfer ruble", a fake currency with ridiculous fake official dollar exchange rate making every sale a huge loss for the factory. There were amateur DIY plans published in magazines, COBRA in AUDIO VIDEO and CA80 in Radioelektronik. Nobody was manufacturing those computers and afaik plans were being published during design and debugging making recreation a nightmare. >99% of 80s computers in Polish homes came smuggled from the west and most went straight to garbage in late nineties. Poland freed from russian occupation was getting wealthy really fast and nobody had time for obsoleted hardware.
[1] https://hackaday.com/2016/07/05/retrotechtacular-how-solidar...
StefanBatory•9mo ago
I hate how with most history books published here, after a year or two it's impossible to get them due to low print :(
rasz•9mo ago
Cant find a way to simply download it :(
pndy•9mo ago
markwrobel•9mo ago
Casually looking in the magazines published in 1985, during the time of the iron curtain, reveals a lot of fun stuff like games and poke codes, but also more serious stuff. Nothing here suggest that home computers where illegal to have at home.
In fact [2] suggest that home computer use in Poland was wide spread.
[1] https://archive.org/details/bajtekmagazine [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290109777_Playing_a...
rasz•9mo ago
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/316764-computer-export-to-...
Still all computers with a power exceeding 8 bits, software for computer-aided design and manufacturing (CAD/CAM), software related to sound and image processing and artificial intelligence, as well as software used for testing computer technology were still strictly prohibited.
There were personal computers in Poland before 1985, all smuggled and illegal. Just like owning Dollars, Deutsche Marks and Pounds was illegal yet there was whole chain of official Pewex shops accepting exclusively those currencies. Poland was weird like that.
Klaudiusz Dybowski was chief of Commodore corner in Bajtek. Interview:
"Wywiad z Klaudiuszem Dybowskim" by (Atari Online PL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC7zYjrSxo
50:40 timestamp is where he talks how he got his own Commodore 64 into Poland in late 1984 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC7zYjrSxo&t=3043
>"natomiast Musiałem zostawić sprzęt w urzedzie celnym, bo zglosilem ze przywiozlem komputer, "musi pan to zostawic, teraz musi pan napisac podanie o zezwolenie na posiadanie komputera i wwiezienie go do Polski", i mam to podanie, napisalem je, mam do tego [....] od Zarządu Ruchu Lotniczego i Lotnisk Komunikacyjnych dostalem takie poparcie "bardzo prosimy zeby mozna to bylo wwiesc, komputer bedzie sluzyl do obliczen prodedur itd" i to zanioslem, poczekalem 2 tygodnie i komputer odebralem
>"However, I had to leave the equipment at the customs office, because I reported entering with a computer, "you must leave it with us, now you have to write an application for license to import and own a computer", and I still have this application, I wrote it .... from Zarząd Ruchu Lotniczego i Lotnisk Komunikacyjnych (name of company managing Polish airports at the time, his employer) I received such support "requesting to grant permission, computer will be used for the calculations of airport procedures etc." and I took it, I waited 2 weeks and I received the computer
So as you see even Bajtek chief had to have a license to own mere C64.
markwrobel•9mo ago
This was not the experience of Poles in general in 1985 according to [1][2].
> "There is a wide range on offer at the Warsaw bazaar. There is everything from microcomputers and peripherals through software to services like repairs and hardware modifications. There is no problem with the availability of literature. [...] Among computers for sale the most popular are ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64. [...] Certainly, software is also available.
The above quote is taken from the writing of Patryk Wasiak from 2014, with the title "Playing and copying: social practices of home computer users in Poland during the 1980s" [3].
In [3] there is also mentions of the frequent import of electronics by Poles visiting West Berlin. I find no one mentioning that the equipment bought on the Bazaars should be registered.
Finally, both Poland, and the Soviet Union, in the 80s allowed limited private enterprises in the realm of electronics. All sorts of clones of 8-bit computers, like the ZX Spectrum were available, including a rich ecosystem of peripherals. However, they were generations behind their western counterparts. Surely they were late in the game, but they did not lack creativity.
[1] Roman Poznański, “Informatyka na Perskim,” (Informatics on the Persian Bazaar) Bajtek (October 1985): 24-25.
[2] Link to scan of Bajtek October 1985 https://archive.org/details/bajtek_85_02/page/n23/mode/2up?v...
[3] (PDF) https://atarionline.pl/forum/?PostBackAction=Download&Attach...
rasz•9mo ago
>I find no one mentioning that the equipment bought on the Bazaars should be registered.
Neither anyone mentioned paying taxes or import duty :) because it was all _smuggled_, either hidden from customs or smoothed over with bribes. Another example is Bajtek Atari clan chief editor Wojciech Zientara personally smuggled 600XL from West Germany during one of his commercial cruises, perk of being a sailor.
Computer fairs were extremely illegal from every angle possible. Smuggled goods, illegal goods (printers), no taxes, no registered businesses, no license for commerce, renting the place under the umbrella of a Tourist Club „Pod Kamykiem” haha, illegal hard currency exchange https://spidersweb.pl/plus/2021/04/gielda-komputerowa-prl-la...
>„Bajtka” napisał o ultimatum. Redakcja odbierze giełdzie patronat, jeśli w ciągu dwóch miesięcy nie zostaną wprowadzone pewne zmiany. Chodziło m.in. o ukrócenie handlu walutami
[3] contains a lot of inaccuracies:
>COCOM ... obtaining an export license was a mere formality
not really, according to my examples 'only if the computer was necessary for the citizen's professional or scientific work'
>Moreover, 8-bit home computers were excluded from the list
only in 1985
> Pewex in cooperation with state-owned company Karen
Karen was a private company, or more accurately Polish subsidiary of American one http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/P.Z._Karen
> Atari was sold in Pewex at the same price as the Commodore C-64 in computer bazaars but became more popular despite a smaller choice of software.
Pewex Atari required hard currency while computer fairs accepted plain zlotys. Bajtek/Top Secret/Secret Service own surveys showed ~2x more C64 than Atari in reader hands.
mrandish•9mo ago
And I thought owning a 4K microcomputer as a suburban California teenager in 1981 was lonely and hard! No one in my family's extended network had a computer at home, nor could they even imagine what you'd do with such a thing at home (other than maybe play games which an Atari console could do better and much cheaper).
> nobody had time for obsoleted hardware.
Sadly, the same was true in the U.S. although it was great for me. In the late 90s I built out my complete collection of every model of 8-bit micro commonly sold in the U.S. in the 80s and early 90s. All the Ataris, all the Apples (except that Apple 1 kit of course), all the Commodores, all the Radio Shacks, all the Amigas, all the Sinclairs, plus dozens more few remember as well as quite a few from overseas. And I never paid more than $25 for any of them (and many were just given to me for free).
My teenage daughter recently looked up a bunch of them on eBay and apparently the collection is probably worth north of $100,000. Of course, I told her it's only worth that if I was interested in selling them - and I'm not. :-)
markwrobel•9mo ago
Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s. Take a look at the computer magazine Bajtek [1] published from 1985, which focused on games and programming.
[1] https://archive.org/details/bajtekmagazine
thrw99•9mo ago
those problems were not management, founder of Optimus- Roman Kluska is one of the most briliant minds in Poland, even today. Problems were caused by the state itself, first directing Optimus to book VAT in certain way, and then the same state accusing Optimus of defrauding VAT. Roman Kluska was imprisoned and had to pay 8mln PLN to be bailed, later when he was deemed not guilty that money was never returned to him, not to mention all damage they caused to himself and his business. These are leftovers of communism aparatus, nobody liable for anything.
pndy•9mo ago
cromka•9mo ago
It’s a rumor but considering how corrupt was everything back then, I find it completely plausible since otherwise it would be against Polish raison d’etat to kill a strong, homegrown computer manufacturer.
cheraderama•9mo ago
thrw99•9mo ago