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Is Mathematics Mostly Chaos or Mostly Order?

https://www.quantamagazine.org/is-mathematics-mostly-chaos-or-mostly-order-20250620/
48•baruchel•3d ago

Comments

b0a04gl•3h ago
how much of modern set theory is reverse engineered from axioms rather than discovered. we're always building highways through a forest we haven't mapped, assuming every tree will fall in line. and suddenly these new large cardinals show up that don't even sit neatly in the ladder. it's maynot be failure of math,but failure of narrative. we thought the infinite was climbable, now it's folding sideways. maybe the math we're building is just a subset of what's possible, shaped by what's provable under our current tools. lot of deep shit probably hiding in the unprovable.
Sniffnoy•3h ago
> But add a smaller cardinal to one of the new infinities, and “they kind of blow up,” Bagaria said. “This is a phenomenon that had never appeared before.”

I have to wonder just what is meant by this, because in ZFC, a sum of just two (or any finite number) of cardinals can't "blow up" like this; you need an infinite sum. I mean, presumably they're referring to such an infinite sum, but they don't really explain, and they make it sound like it's just adding two even though that can't be what is meant.

(In ZFC, if you add two cardinals, of which at least one is infinite, the sum will always be equal to the maximum of the two. Indeed, the same is true for multiplication, as long as neither of the cardinals is zero. And of course both of these extend to any finite sum. To get interesting sums or products that involve infinite cardinals, you need infinitely many summands or factors.)

bubblyworld•43m ago
I suspect they mean "add" in the sense of "add in an axiom asserting the existence of another cardinal". Things like consistency strength of the resulting theory seem to vary wildly depending on what other cardinals you throw into the mix (if I understood the article correctly, haven't read the paper, mea culpa).
scrubs•1h ago
If I had a semester or two of free time I'd love to hit this subject again. I once told my math prof (logician) who made a comment about transfinite cardinals: careful it's powerful but it's power from the devil. I half regret that comment in retrospect.

I've never made peace with Cantor's diagonaliztion argument because listing real numbers on the right side (natural number lhs for the mapping) is giving a real number including transedentals that pre-bakes in a kind of undefined infinite.

Maybe it's the idea of a completed infinity that's my problem; maybe it's the fact I don't understand how to define (or forgot cauchy sequences in detail) an arbitrary real.

In short, if reals are a confusing you can only tie yourself up in knots using confusing.

Sigh - wish I could do better!

clintonc•24m ago
There are a couple of strategies for understanding the real numbers. One is to write down a definition of real numbers, for example using rational numbers and Dedekind cuts, hoping that what you're describing is really what you mean. The other is to write down the properties of real numbers as you understand them as "axioms", and go from there. An important property of real numbers that always comes up (either as a consequence of Dedekind cuts or as an axiom itself) is the least upper bound property -- every set which has an upper bound has a least upper bound. That's what gives you the "completeness" of the real numbers, from which you can prove facts like the completeness of the real numbers (i.e., Cauchy sequences always converge), the Heine-Borel theorem (closed and bounded subsets of the reals are "compact", and vice-versa), and Cantor's intersection theorem (that the nested intersection of a sequence of non-empty compact sets is also compact).

The diagonalization argument is an intuitive tool, IMHO. It is great if it convinces you, but it's difficult to make rigorous in a way that everyone accepts due to the use of a decimal expansion for every real number. One way to avoid that is to prove a little fact: the union of a finite number of intervals can be written as the finite union of disjoint intervals, and that the total length of those intervals is at most the total length of the original intervals. (Prove it by induction.)

THEOREM: [0, 1] is uncountable. Proof: By way of contradiction, let f be the surjection that shows [0, 1] is countable. Let U_i be the interval of length 1/2*i centered on f(i). The union V_n = U_1 + U_2 + ... + U_n has combined length 1 - 1/2*n < 1, so it can't contain [0, 1]. Another way to state that is that K_n = [0, 1] - V_n is non-empty. K_n also compact, as it's closed (complement of V_n) and bounded (subset of [0, 1]). By Cantor's intersection theorem, there is some x in all K_n, which means it's in [0,1] but none of the U_i; in particular, it can't be f(i) for any i. That contradicts our assumption that f is surjective.

Through the right lens, this is precisely the idea of the diagonalization argument, with our intervals of length 2*-n (centered at points in the sequence) replacing intervals replacing intervals of length 10*-n (not centered at points in the sequence) implicit in the "diagonal" construction.

dgfitz•1h ago
I’ve always considered math is something that is discovered, neither chaotic or orderly, it just… is. Really brilliant people make new discoveries, but they were there the whole time waiting to be found.

This article seems to kind of dance around yet agree with the discovery thing, but in an indirect way.

Math is just math. Music is just music. Even seemingly-random musical notes played in a “song” has a rational explanation relative to the instrument. It isn’t the fault of music that a song might sound chaotic, it’s just music. Bad music maybe. This analogy can break down quickly, but in my head it makes sense.

Disclaimer - the most advanced math classes I’ve taken: calc3/linear/diffeq.

revskill•16m ago
We need a word-less world of math where all meaning is derived from figures. WOrds are confusing.

"If you can describe the meaning using only pencils and compass, you don't mean it"

novaRom•6m ago
And especially when we mix different categories. Like saying about any infinity as about an object is misleading, because it's rather a process

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