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How the Turner twins are mythbusting modern technical apparel

https://www.carryology.com/insights/how-the-turner-twins-are-mythbusting-modern-gear/
63•greedo•2d ago

Comments

embedding-shape•1h ago
> Today, their biometrics are tracked by ingestible sensor pills that monitor core temperature from the inside out

I wonder if those are pills they've developed themselves, or if it's an existing product available to consumer?

suzzer99•1h ago
I've read about them being used in other studies.
XorNot•1h ago
I feel like downplaying 1.8 degrees C of performance is a weird choice in the article.

1.8 degrees C is a huge temperature change in biology. Human bodies keep thermal equilibrium in a margin smaller then that.

fellowniusmonk•1h ago
Also: Freezing right away when you stop moving at 8k altitude? I was just skiing at 11k and it never even crossed my mind.
ghaff•1h ago
Not right away. But a lot depends on the wind.
jhellan•1h ago
The article says meters, not feet.
MagnumOpus•1h ago
Yes. They were talking about 8,000 metres of altitude. (Talking about Mallory should have been a clue too.)
Scarblac•1h ago
8k meters. There is no place at 11k where you can ski.
idontwantthis•44m ago
You could be on skis they might make it harder to control your parachute.
adonovan•28m ago
Also weird phrasing: "a staggering 1.8 degrees" begs the reader to think of it as a large number (which in fact it is, as you point out) yet their intent seems to be, ironically and paradoxically, to diminish it.
jldugger•1h ago
> the data showed that on summit night, the average body temperature difference between the twin in modern down and the twin in complicated layers of silk, wool, and gabardine was a staggering 1.8°C. > “In a hundred years, you’ve gained—arguably—one degree of efficiency per 50 years,” Ross reveals.

Depending on where the baseline is, 1.8 degrees could be huge! But more importantly, heat dissapation is a non-linear function. The warmer you are relative to your environment, the more energy is lost. While Shackleton's kit forms a lower baseline, it probably makes sense to imagine how some imaginary perfect vacuum insulated sleeping bag would perform.

margalabargala•1h ago
This whole article is kind of a straw man anyway.

Warmth of clothing isn't actually what people care about. What people care about, and what the article does not mention, is warmth per unit weight.

stevejb•1h ago
Their bar graph showed that in almost every category except for accessories, the weights were pretty much identical.
margalabargala•39m ago
"Pretty much identical"

Add up the numbers in the bar graph and you'll see that the old gear sums to two kilograms heavier than the modern gear.

next_xibalba•1h ago
Isn’t there a chart showing weight by body part midway through the article?
margalabargala•36m ago
Yeah, it shows the old gear is about two kilograms heavier than the new gear, which is huge.

Considering that someone carrying 2 extra kilos will also be generating more body heat etc, the focus on heat over the rest of the article is in question.

altairprime•32m ago
To clarify slightly: it shows the old gear is significantly heavier in three areas: head, hands, and ‘accessories’. I think that suggests where investment in technical fabric has been most successful at improving the burden of mass in surviving extreme cold.
altairprime•18m ago
I disagree. People also may care about the cognitive load of thermal management. As the article notes:

> the gear of the past is capable, but it has a narrower operating window. If you stop moving in Mallory’s kit at 8,000 meters, you will freeze quickly. Modern gear buys you a safety margin if you become static.

In modern terms, this means that stopping to take a photo — whether Ansel or selfie — would carry a material risk of harm in the classic gear that is addressed by modern gear. The example of a selfie is perhaps too easily dismissed unconsidered, but the cognitive load is real for casual hikers, and is a benefit to modern gear that deserves the mention it gets. If I had to choose between a cap that has perfect heat management and a cap that weighs 10g less but requires me to constantly take it off and put it on every five minutes to allow evaporation, I would choose the heavier and lower annoyance cap. Each person’s preferences and skills apply; if one seeks to minmax weight/thermal then that’s a negligible price to pay to improve — but only some truly do strive for the limit of lowest mass without regards to complexity.

There was an enviro-scifi book from the eighties that noted that a few people will pursue ‘one piece of apparel serves all functions’ skinsuit to the exclusion of all other concerns (such as natural fabrics or apparel design), at which point we would plausibly expect to see at one extreme the folks who make a discount-ultralight vented bodysuit out of FedEx envelopes. I am taking for granted that someone has tried this, because of course someone has tried this! And that starts to verge on why, in a different enviro-scifi book of that same relative era, the stillsuit existed: the lightest way to have convenient purified water in an absurd climates. Even the stillsuit as we see it described prioritizes convenience, the sip tube, over a more efficient system that doesn’t expend calories on pumping water up. That’s purely because human beings have a cognitive annoyance limit; and we do variably prioritize convenience when assessing the weight-complexity tradeoff.

Aurornis•56m ago
Is that really core body temperature?

Normal core body temperature is around 37C.

Hypothermia starts around 35C, only 2C less.

If they're actually measuring body temperature (using that swallowed pill they mention?) then 1.8C is a huge difference.

This whole article does feel like they started with a conclusion and they were going to report that conclusion regardless of what they measured or experienced. Content that claims to debunk things is hot right now.

systemsweird•46m ago
Also the body will increase metabolic rate in the cold to maintain body temperate which is an externality they aren’t measuring. The user of the worse clothing is very likely burning more calories and still not as warm. This would mean increased fatigue and greater food weight on expeditions.
ChrisMarshallNY•1h ago
That's pretty cool. They talk about how getting period clothes basically required custom work.

Must be pricey.

tenuousemphasis•1h ago
There was a time not all that long ago that the most expensive thing most people owned was clothing.
pinkmuffinere•49m ago
> During their simulation of Mallory’s Everest expedition, the data showed that on summit night, the average body temperature difference between the twin in modern down and the twin in complicated layers of silk, wool, and gabardine was a staggering 1.8°C.

The human body self-regulates, and is pretty sensitive to dramatic temperature swings. So, conditioned on the fact that they both survived the adventure, we should expect their temperature differences to be relatively small. This doesn't mean the clothing is great, it means [their body] + [their clothing] is adequate.

Additionally, I'm not a doctor but 1.8 C is not small compared to normal human variation! Normal body temperature ranges between 36 and 37 C, a "high fever" starts around 39 C [0], and hypothermia is anything below 35 C [1]. The comfortable range of human temperature is 1 deg C, and the "outside of this is concerning" range is only 4 C wide. 1.8 C is quite big from that perspective.

[0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/treat...

[1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothermia/s...

sneak•43m ago
The idea that full grown identical twins are identical humans for purposes of analysis is also fundamentally flawed. Just because they share DNA and look the same doesn’t mean anything about their relative health, fitness, metabolic rates, etc.
obsidianbases1•42m ago
I thought weight would be where the modern wear performed best.

More surprisingly, the footwear of yore was apparently lighter

amelius•25m ago
It honestly seems more like they are in it for the photoshoots.

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How the Turner twins are mythbusting modern technical apparel

https://www.carryology.com/insights/how-the-turner-twins-are-mythbusting-modern-gear/
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